The Philosophy Discussion Forum

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 8:47 pm Yes IC, most women getting an abortion do not WANT to do that.

But they do want to kill the baby. There isn't any other reason for being at the abortion place; and there isn't any other outcome they are wanting. In fact, they would be very upset if it didn't happen.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 9:03 pm

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 8:47 pm Yes IC, most women getting an abortion do not WANT to do that.

But they do want to kill the baby. There isn't any other reason for being at the abortion place; and there isn't any other outcome they are wanting. In fact, they would be very upset if it didn't happen.

Were you truly unable to understand and respond to the previous post? Do you really use "want to" that way in similar circumstances?

If you have a gangrenous foot and agree to have it amputated do you WANT to have your foot amputated? Like in your example above, you would be upset if it didn't happen.

Faced with two options, one bad and one very bad, you prefer the less bad/evil option. But you do not ordinarily say you WANT the bad option. So WHY do you treat this differently?

Women who get abortions WANT not to be pregnant, WANT not to have a baby.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 11:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 9:03 pm

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 8:47 pm Yes IC, most women getting an abortion do not WANT to do that.

But they do want to kill the baby. There isn't any other reason for being at the abortion place; and there isn't any other outcome they are wanting. In fact, they would be very upset if it didn't happen.

Women who get abortions WANT not to be pregnant, WANT not to have a baby.

That’s flawed logic.

Women who kill their baby by intentional abortion have done so because they deliberately WANT to kill it. This has got nothing to do with I do not want to have a baby. Or I don’t want to be pregnant, especially if the woman is already pregnant knowingly, that she can now make the choice to kill it. If she’s already pregnant, saying I don’t want to be pregnant when she’s already pregnant, and the baby has already been actualised, is irrational.
That’s why the responsibility of all mature females is to educate their children as early as possible about the females potential to get pregnant through the action of sexual intercourse with the opposite sex. So that they become knowledgeable of how babies come into the world from out of their own bodies.

A woman can’t just magically not want what she’s biologically created to do. That’s like a woman saying I don’t want to be a female baby bearer, when she’s already what she doesn’t want, that’s just illogical irrational thinking. In reality she ought to be educated enough to take responsibility for the knowledge she possesses,passed down to her from all those who came before her, also to be responsible for the consequences that follow any choice or decision making when it comes to biological sexual urges. Any woman or man who is in the know of how human bodies work and how life comes into being as and through their bodies already is equipped with the understand that killing another life is morally not justifiable on the human level of understanding. No one likes the idea of being murdered, having their life taken away from them by someone else,do they. That’s just obvious. So why do it to yourself.





Of course, once the baby is actualised, already here, the woman has the choice to allow its birth, or to kill it.
It’s still taking the life of another human being that cannot consent to its own murder. Thing is, babies actually belong to their original creator. Everything belongs to God. The physical body is the vessel and custodian of life through which all life is made possible. When you kill a baby, you’re just killing your self, and God allowed you this choice because God is unconditionally all allowing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 3:55 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 9:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 5:34 am
This doesn't involve belief. It's very, very simple: there are people who want babies dead. They do it. And they do it so the babies will be dead.

There's nothing to believe. There are only the facts.

I agree with that statement. People already know that a pregnancy is the potential for a living conscious being known as a baby.That’s a fact, yes. No one alive can deny their factual aliveness, this factual obviousness doesn’t require a belief to be true.

So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

Yes, I agree.

The woman thinks and believes her pregnancy was of her own choosing, and with that belief comes the choice to dispose of what she believed she created. . but the choice was never hers, just as the babies gender was never hers. Just as her genetics were never hers.

All life forms are actualised by life itself, only life owns life, not the human body, the body is functioning completely perfectly without the need of an owner, it does this living thing, all by itself. It belongs to nobody.
All choice is a choiceless choice, which is still the choice of the divine, known as God.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 11:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 9:03 pm

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 8:47 pm Yes IC, most women getting an abortion do not WANT to do that.

But they do want to kill the baby. There isn't any other reason for being at the abortion place; and there isn't any other outcome they are wanting. In fact, they would be very upset if it didn't happen.

...do you WANT to have your foot amputated? Like in your example above, you would be upset if it didn't happen.

If you think you have gangrene, and you go to your surgeon, and he does not amputate, you will be terrified...because you'll believe you're going to die of gangrene as a result.

So yes, you DO want your foot amputated. It's why you've gone to the surgery. You've been frightened into doing something hideous...rather like aborting a baby, actually.

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 7:11 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 3:55 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 9:06 am
I agree with that statement. People already know that a pregnancy is the potential for a living conscious being known as a baby.That’s a fact, yes. No one alive can deny their factual aliveness, this factual obviousness doesn’t require a belief to be true.

So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

Yes, I agree.

The woman thinks and believes her pregnancy was of her own choosing,

Whether she "thinks and believes it," it is so.

and with that belief comes the choice to dispose of what she believed she created.

No, that doesn't follow, of course. There are many decisions we make that we cannot take back. What she's trying to do is to take no responsibility for the consequences of her choice.

But maturity is owning consequences, when one has chosen to hazard them. There's no moral high ground in adding the crime of murder to cover up a poor and irresponsible choice one made earlier. The direction of spiritual and moral growth is to accept the consequences and refuse to add evil to evil, even at a cost to oneself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 1:32 pm So yes, you DO want your foot amputated. It's why you've gone to the surgery. You've been frightened into doing something hideous...rather like aborting a baby, actually.

OK, clear now. You are going to be using "want" in a different way than I do.

I would NOT say the person WANTS to have the foot amputated. Rather it is a case of choosing between two things not wanted, one not wanted, and one far, far more than the other. Choosing between and evil and a far greater evil. THAT is why I am saying (and will continue to say) most women having an abortion d not WANT to have an abortion. But they really don't want the alternative (being pregnant, having this baby, etc.)

THAT is what those who oppose abortion should address. Put your money where your mouth is and offer what might affect that equation of "don't wants". In the sense of making the "don't want" of having the ban]by less. Currently just trying to change the equation by making the "don't want" of abortion worse.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 3:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 1:32 pm So yes, you DO want your foot amputated. It's why you've gone to the surgery. You've been frightened into doing something hideous...rather like aborting a baby, actually.

I would NOT say the person WANTS to have the foot amputated. Rather it is a case of choosing between two things not wanted, one not wanted, and one far, far more than the other.

But in this case, the gangrene was chosen by you. You wanted to risk getting gangrene. Afterward, when you realized that you had gangrene, you rushed to the surgery, desperately wanting to get your foot removed instead of experiencing the outcome of your choice.

You wanted to take the risk. You didn't want what you got. Now you want to do something horrendous, to "fix" your bad decision. And all along, the problem has been that you acted on what you wanted, not what you should have wanted.

So from beginning to end, the problem is really...you.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 1:58 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 7:11 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2026 3:55 pm
So what they know they are killing is a baby. She's human, she's growing, she's got her own genetics, systems, life, meaning and trajectory. The woman already CHOSE to create her. Now she wants to kill the life she voluntarily (in 99% of recorded cases) created.

And the baby does not belong to the mother to dispose of.

Yes, I agree.

The woman thinks and believes her pregnancy was of her own choosing,

Whether she "thinks and believes it," it is so.

and with that belief comes the choice to dispose of what she believed she created.

No, that doesn't follow, of course. There are many decisions we make that we cannot take back. What she's trying to do is to take no responsibility for the consequences of her choice.

But maturity is owning consequences, when one has chosen to hazard them. There's no moral high ground in adding the crime of murder to cover up a poor and irresponsible choice one made earlier. The direction of spiritual and moral growth is to accept the consequences and refuse to add evil to evil, even at a cost to oneself.

Yes, I understand that. Well said btw.

It doesn’t matter whether she "thinks and believes it," it is so. As you mentioned already.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 4:01 pm
So from beginning to end, the problem is really...you.

Yes, the problem lies with wanting what you don’t want.

One cannot take that back, it is so.

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 4:59 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 1:58 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 7:11 am

Yes, I agree.

The woman thinks and believes her pregnancy was of her own choosing,

Whether she "thinks and believes it," it is so.

and with that belief comes the choice to dispose of what she believed she created.

No, that doesn't follow, of course. There are many decisions we make that we cannot take back. What she's trying to do is to take no responsibility for the consequences of her choice.

But maturity is owning consequences, when one has chosen to hazard them. There's no moral high ground in adding the crime of murder to cover up a poor and irresponsible choice one made earlier. The direction of spiritual and moral growth is to accept the consequences and refuse to add evil to evil, even at a cost to oneself.

Yes, I understand that. Well said btw.

Thank you. Very gracious of you to say.

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 4:01 pm
So from beginning to end, the problem is really...you.

Yes, the problem lies with wanting what you don’t want.

One cannot take that back, it is so.

The really hurtful thing about abortion, other than that it kills the baby, is having to live with the knowledge of having done it. I cannot imagine what it's like for a woman to look into the eyes of another of her children, and then think to herself, "There was once another of these dear little precious ones that could have been here with me, in the world; and I killed her." I don't know how a person could remain conscious of that truth and not feel so wounded and miserable that she could not go on.

So no wonder that people who have had an abortion are almost always impossible to speak truth with about it. They HAVE to find some other way of telling the story to themselves..."it wasn't like my current son/daughter...it was just a cluster of cells...everybody does it...I didn't have the money...I can prevent myself feeling the guilt if I just hate Pro-Lifers with all my heart, and advocate for more women to do it..." They must feel the need of something to enable them to avoid the "I'm the murderer of my own precious child" conclusion. Who could stand that thought?

There is forgiveness for every sin. But for those who cannot face the admission of their sin, what chance they will turn and call out for it? So long as they are busy convincing themselves that they did not do the awful deed...that there were circumstances that made it alright...that they had no choice...etc., they cannot possibly summon the self awareness to cry out, "God, please forgive me for what I did." Who asks forgiveness, when they deny they even have a sin to be forgiven?

The amazing thing is that, if they did that, the forgiveness they crave would be immediate and freely given. But I think they can't afford to believe it, because they don't want to go through the dark night of the soul that is before the real healing. So they have to continue as divided souls: on the one hand, knowing what they have done; on the other, vigorously devoting themselves to sustaining the illusion that they did no such thing.

I have nothing but sympathy for them. It must be horrible. I would wish them escape and relief. More than that, I wish they would not put themselves in that dilemma in the first place. That would be the least painful option.

All the more reason, then, to hold fast to the truth before they make the decision that they fear even to admit to themselves, but that will eat them up for a lifetime if they don't admit it. This is the mother-centered reason to be against abortion; not just for the baby's sake, though that is enough, but for the sake of the woman who has to live with the deed thereafter.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 6:01 pm
The really hurtful thing about abortion, other than that it kills the baby, is having to live with the knowledge of having done it. I cannot imagine what it's like for a woman to look into the eyes of another of her children, and then think to herself, "There was once another of these dear little precious ones that could have been here with me, in the world; and I killed her." I don't know how a person could remain conscious of that truth and not feel so wounded and miserable that she could not go on.

Oh I absolutely understand what you mean. I’ve had firsthand direct experience of that.

When I was pregnant with my 4 th child, my husband of 18 years chose to leave me and the children for another woman . Never to look back.

The most shocking thing that surprised me the most, was on my first visit to talk to my doctor about what had happened in my personal life, about my husband leaving his entire family, and pregnant wife. My doctor’s first response on hearing my story was to ask me if I wanted to concider having an abortion. Immediately I said No, of course, in fact I was quite offended tbh. I couldn’t have thought about anything worse. The baby I was carrying at the time was the most precious thing in the world to me, even as I very quickly became aware that I was going to have to raise this child alone, which I did, very successfully, actually. I definitely couldn’t have lived with myself knowing I’d deliberately killed my baby, the very idea was aberrant to me. Turns out the kid is the most incredible human being I’ve ever had the good fortune to meet. Not being too biased about that, it is just a fact.

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 7:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 6:01 pm
The really hurtful thing about abortion, other than that it kills the baby, is having to live with the knowledge of having done it. I cannot imagine what it's like for a woman to look into the eyes of another of her children, and then think to herself, "There was once another of these dear little precious ones that could have been here with me, in the world; and I killed her." I don't know how a person could remain conscious of that truth and not feel so wounded and miserable that she could not go on.

Oh I absolutely understand what you mean. I’ve had firsthand direct experience of that.

When I was pregnant with my 4 th child, my husband of 18 years chose to leave me and the children for another woman . Never to look back.

Geez. That's awful.

The most shocking thing that surprised me the most, was on my first visit to talk to my doctor about what had happened in my personal life, about my husband leaving his entire family, and pregnant wife. My doctor’s first response on hearing my story was to ask me if I wanted to concider having an abortion. Immediately I said No, of course, in fact I was quite offended tbh. I couldn’t have thought about anything worse. The baby I was carrying at the time was the most precious thing in the world to me, even as I very quickly became aware that I was going to have to raise this child alone, which I did, very successfully, actually. I definitely couldn’t have lived with myself knowing I’d deliberately killed my baby, the very idea was aberrant to me. Turns out the kid is the most incredible human being I’ve ever had the good fortune to meet. Not being too biased about that, it is just a fact.

Wow. Well, my esteem for you just went up a whole lot. (Not that I had a particularly negative opinion, but you know what I mean) You definitely did the right thing. And good for you that you saved an incredible human being, into the bargain. The world owes you one.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 6:01 pm

Fairy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 5:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2026 4:01 pm
So from beginning to end, the problem is really...you.

Yes, the problem lies with wanting what you don’t want.

One cannot take that back, it is so.

The really hurtful thing about abortion, other than that it kills the baby, is having to live with the knowledge of having done it. I cannot imagine what it's like for a woman to look into the eyes of another of her children, and then think to herself, "There was once another of these dear little precious ones that could have been here with me, in the world; and I killed her." I don't know how a person could remain conscious of that truth and not feel so wounded and miserable that she could not go on.

So no wonder that people who have had an abortion are almost always impossible to speak truth with about it. They HAVE to find some other way of telling the story to themselves..."it wasn't like my current son/daughter...it was just a cluster of cells...everybody does it...I didn't have the money...I can prevent myself feeling the guilt if I just hate Pro-Lifers with all my heart, and advocate for more women to do it..." They must feel the need of something to enable them to avoid the "I'm the murderer of my own precious child" conclusion. Who could stand that thought?

There is forgiveness for every sin. But for those who cannot face the admission of their sin, what chance they will turn and call out for it? So long as they are busy convincing themselves that they did not do the awful deed...that there were circumstances that made it alright...that they had no choice...etc., they cannot possibly summon the self awareness to cry out, "God, please forgive me for what I did." Who asks forgiveness, when they deny they even have a sin to be forgiven?

The amazing thing is that, if they did that, the forgiveness they crave would be immediate and freely given. But I think they can't afford to believe it, because they don't want to go through the dark night of the soul that is before the real healing. So they have to continue as divided souls: on the one hand, knowing what they have done; on the other, vigorously devoting themselves to sustaining the illusion that they did no such thing.

I have nothing but sympathy for them. It must be horrible. I would wish them escape and relief. More than that, I wish they would not put themselves in that dilemma in the first place. That would be the least painful option.

All the more reason, then, to hold fast to the truth before they make the decision that they fear even to admit to themselves, but that will eat them up for a lifetime if they don't admit it. This is the mother-centered reason to be against abortion; not just for the baby's sake, though that is enough, but for the sake of the woman who has to live with the deed thereafter.

I absolutely support that. And so I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for the collaboration.