The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Good Lord.

There are no words.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:49 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:36 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:27 pm

I've highlighted in red the things you claim socialists "want" that I haven't seen mentioned by Marx in the communist manifesto. Are we not using Marx's definition of "socialist" anymore?

You don't see them because Socialists never say all they are going to need in order to create Socialism. They don't want you to know. But you can figure it out.

They must have total power, because Socialism is a total system of life and needs-provision. They even must control your reproduction and child-rearing, because they have to create "Socialist Man."

They have to keep the public subdued and obedient, because they can't risk having Socialism itself threatened, overthrown, or opted-out-of. If they allowed that, Socialism would be eliminated.

They cannot allow any political rivals, because Socialism claims to be the ultimate and final political solution, and it would be undone by any contrary regime.

And so on. If you understand Socialism, you can see that it's going to need all these things and more.

OK. So what you are saying makes sense.

It's pretty apparent, isn't it?

Socialism does depend upon an enlightened public who will vote for politicians who are truthful about their planned policies and follow through with them, an enlightened intelligentsia that can successfully run public institutions according to the mission of the institution, and a free and independent press that the public can trust to be impartial, truthful, and fair.

Well, this is another thing that Socialism requires: it requires everybody to have to believe their ideology. They cannot allow any departure. They have to accuse it all of being "irrational," or "unfair," or "unenlightened," or "unintelligent," or "unscientific," or "antisocial," or "fascist," and so on. Consequently, they cannot possibly allow a free and independent press. What the public is allowed to think must be tightly controlled to guide everything toward Socialism, and away from any contrary thought.

You see this in the Soviet Union, in China, and in all the Socialist states of history. Information limitation and political obedience become paramount. This is why Soviet Russia had its own conception of "truth" (the meaning of Pravda, its propaganda machine) and "the real" (Soviet Realism in art, for example, was all that was allowed).

Trump

Not relevant here. He's not a Socialist, so far as anybody has alleged.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:45 pm And why are you a Socialist, since Socialism would instantly reduce you to well below the poverty line?

I give up. I don't know, IC. If I'm going to live in accord with everyone else in the world and therefore possibly live in a clay adobe hut burning manure in a fire pit to cook with, then I don't know what to say. I guess you are right that I should be against socialism. I'm not an economist, so I don't have an answer on how to bring everyone up instead of bringing many of us down. It was my belief that we could have socialism in our country and let other countries worry about their own economies and institutions. Is that not the case?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 4:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 3:45 pm And why are you a Socialist, since Socialism would instantly reduce you to well below the poverty line?

I give up.

Good choice. Your view wasn't adding up.

I guess you are right that I should be against socialism.

I am...but I'm far from the first or the only one to discover it. Socialism's own record should be 100% convincing.

It was my belief that we could have socialism in our country and let other countries worry about their own economies and institutions. Is that not the case?

Well, you're talking about "National Socialism," then...Socialism, but limited to the goals, ambitions and benefits of one nation only. Communism, on the other hand, is a global form of Socialism that demands that Socialism be everywhere and always.

Ironically, it's Communism that would make you the poorest. Because it would require you to redistribute to the entire world's population. You might have a bit more money with Nazism, but I don't think you'd be any happier or more free. And you'd certainly be doing worse than you are now.

Try gratitude. It's very freeing.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 4:40 pm Try gratitude. It's very freeing.

Not really.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 4:40 pm Try gratitude. It's very freeing.

Not really.

You won't know until you try.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:21 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 4:40 pm Try gratitude. It's very freeing.

Not really.

You won't know until you try.

I've tried it, it doesn't solve anything. It's an empty sentiment expressed to nothing that cares about our sentiments. Unless there is indeed a God who created this shit world.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:21 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:18 pm

Not really.

You won't know until you try.

I've tried it, it doesn't solve anything. It's an empty sentiment expressed to nothing that cares about our sentiments. Unless there is indeed a God who created this shit world.

For a guy who was born in the most affluent, privileged society in the history of mankind, I'm sure you'll be able to find one thing to feel grateful about, if you try.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:38 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:21 pm
You won't know until you try.

I've tried it, it doesn't solve anything. It's an empty sentiment expressed to nothing that cares about our sentiments. Unless there is indeed a God who created this shit world.

For a guy who was born in the most affluent, privileged society in the history of mankind, I'm sure you'll be able to find one thing to feel grateful about, if you try.

IC, my gratitude is not going to solve anything. Zero. Nothing. Gratitude does nothing.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:38 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:29 pm

I've tried it, it doesn't solve anything. It's an empty sentiment expressed to nothing that cares about our sentiments. Unless there is indeed a God who created this shit world.

For a guy who was born in the most affluent, privileged society in the history of mankind, I'm sure you'll be able to find one thing to feel grateful about, if you try.

IC, my gratitude is not going to solve anything. Zero. Nothing. Gratitude does nothing.

It's going to make your own life a lot happier...and you able to appreciate your advantages, instead of just feeling sorry for yourself and envious of others all the time.

But suit yourself. Some people don't like to be happy.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:01 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 5:38 pm
For a guy who was born in the most affluent, privileged society in the history of mankind, I'm sure you'll be able to find one thing to feel grateful about, if you try.

IC, my gratitude is not going to solve anything. Zero. Nothing. Gratitude does nothing.

It's going to make your own life a lot happier...and you able to appreciate your advantages, instead of just feeling sorry for yourself and envious of others all the time.

But suit yourself. Some people don't like to be happy.

I've tried it. Gratitude doesn't make me happier. What makes me happier is when people stop hassling me about needing to be grateful. So if it's your desire to torture me until I express that I'm grateful for something, then I'm grateful for having a computer.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:14 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:11 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:01 pm

IC, my gratitude is not going to solve anything. Zero. Nothing. Gratitude does nothing.

It's going to make your own life a lot happier...and you able to appreciate your advantages, instead of just feeling sorry for yourself and envious of others all the time.

But suit yourself. Some people don't like to be happy.

I've tried it. Gratitude doesn't make me happier.

Congratulations. You're truly unique, then. Everybody else, it does make happier.

I'm grateful for having a computer.

There you go. There's something you can dwell on. See if it's not better than believing you have nothing. At least you have a computer.

What else? How about your tennis racquet? Or how about two good legs to stand under you and enable you to play the game? How about the feeling of hitting a really good ball...grateful for that? Or how about the taste of good food, or cold ice cream on a hot summer day? How about the ability to speak and think? How about that we're not Third World desperate?

Look around, Gary. There's more yet to be grateful for.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:20 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:14 pm I've tried it. Gratitude doesn't make me happier.

Congratulations. You're truly unique, then. Everybody else, it does make happier.

I'm not neurotypical, so that must be why.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:20 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:14 pm I've tried it. Gratitude doesn't make me happier.

Congratulations. You're truly unique, then. Everybody else, it does make happier.

I'm not neurotypical, so that must be why.

Maybe.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 8:13 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2026 7:20 pm
Congratulations. You're truly unique, then. Everybody else, it does make happier.

I'm not neurotypical, so that must be why.

Maybe.

Gary's just being honest.

Gary is a VOG.

Gratitude from a self-identified "Victim of God" would just be the pretend of cosplay for Gary.

But, the mind is simple and will believe most anything.
Making a habit of expressing gratitude will force him to seek gratitude to express, and eventually that seeps into the bones.

The good feelings from finding gratitude do too, and that causes the bones of intellectual posture to straighten up and start finding accurate connections between dots.