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Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:15 pm
by phyllo
Great. Give an example of how one can "investigate" and "test" an ethic. What's the method?
You try it out and see what results you get.
That's been done all along. Ethics have evolved over time. Even theist and Christian ethics evolve.
Slavery is an example.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:30 pm
by mickthinks
So Manny and I have gone from:
mickthinks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 10:46 pm
Q Why should we be ethical?
A Because we are, and that’s what it means.
To look for further justification of our ethics is to miss the point. Either you are someone for whom “Whatever I like” is the only consideration when deciding what to do, or you aren’t. I’m not.
to:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 1:57 pm
… we don't actually believe that humans are "just another kind of animal." We know we're something different.
but I’m not sure how or why?
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:34 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:15 pm
Great. Give an example of how one can "investigate" and "test" an ethic. What's the method?
Slavery is an example.
Great. Show me how you "investigate" and "test" whether we should have slaves or not.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
by Immanuel Can
mickthinks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:30 pm
So Manny and I have gone from:
mickthinks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 10:46 pm
Q Why should we be ethical?
A Because we are, and that’s what it means.
To look for further justification of our ethics is to miss the point. Either you are someone for whom “Whatever I like” is the only consideration when deciding what to do, or you aren’t. I’m not.
to:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 1:57 pm
… we don't actually believe that humans are "just another kind of animal." We know we're something different.
but I’m not sure how or why?
Easy. Humanism holds that what is "human" is always good..."nothing human is alien to me," remember?
But we routinely tell humans NOT to do what they have various instincts or impulses toward doing -- such as rape, murder, theft, lying, war, injustice...you know, the ethics stuff.
Humanism would need to explain why and by what right it requires of us what it requires of no other animal on earth.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
by phyllo
What human
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:34 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:15 pm
Great. Give an example of how one can "investigate" and "test" an ethic. What's the method?
Slavery is an example.
Great. Show me how you "investigate" and "test" whether we should have slaves or not.
We tried slavery. We don't want it any more.
Try suggesting that Ukrainians ought to use Russian prisoners as slaves.
Or that Americans ought to take Iranians as slaves if they capture any during the war.
This is a change from what was common practice.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:42 pm
by phyllo
Easy. Humanism holds that what is "human" is always good..."nothing human is alien to me," remember?
That's nonsense.
There is no humanist ethic that says anything goes.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:52 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:42 pm
Easy. Humanism holds that what is "human" is always good..."nothing human is alien to me," remember?
That's nonsense.
Hey, Humanism IS nonsense. Don't blame me.
There is no humanist ethic that says anything goes.
There real problem is that there's no such thing as a "Humanist ethic," because they can't explain why anybody is obligated to believe them or to practice their proposed "ethic."
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:58 pm
by mickthinks
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
Humanism holds that what is "human" is always good..."
I’m no expert on humanism, but I’m pretty sure you’ve muddled something up there. Or in other words; what phyllo said
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:58 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
What human
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:34 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:15 pm
Slavery is an example.
Great. Show me how you "investigate" and "test" whether we should have slaves or not.
We tried slavery. We don't want it any more.
Well, there are more slaves in the world today than at any time in the past. Just ask AI or an organization like "Walk Free." So "we" is a limited selection of humanity, it seems. And throughout history, slavery is one of the most common things human beings ever practiced. You just don't kmow about all that, because you apparently live in the comfortable West. Lots of human beings not only wanted slavery, but still want it.
Try suggesting that Ukrainians ought to use Russian prisoners as slaves.
Well, the word "slave" comes from "Slav," as in "Slavic," so your suggestion is historically not impossible. The very concept of a "slave" has come from that part of the world.
But I still haven't seen how you show that they're wrong for having slaves. Or right. I'll take either, if you've got it.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:59 pm
by phyllo
Hey, Humanism IS nonsense. Don't blame me.
I blame you for saying a bunch of nonsense about humanism.
Which humanist manifesto or text says that anything goes in ethics?
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:00 pm
by Immanuel Can
mickthinks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:58 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
Humanism holds that what is "human" is always good..."
I’m no expert on humanism, but I’m pretty sure you’ve muddled something up there. Or in other words; what phyllo said
Well, why would you be defending a thing if you're also "no expert" on it? It wouldn't take much to find out...or you could just wait and see what comes out of the discussion.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:01 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:59 pm
Hey, Humanism IS nonsense. Don't blame me.
I blame you for saying a bunch of nonsense about humanism.
Which humanist manifesto or text says that anything goes in ethics?
The phrase "anything goes" is your own, not mine. You made it up, so you'll have to find it yourself. But I'll tell you what you can find in Humanism: that they have no way of justifying their telling you that there's anything that DOESN'T "go," to use your term. So by process of elimination...
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:03 pm
by phyllo
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:58 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
What human
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:34 pm
Great. Show me how you "investigate" and "test" whether we should have slaves or not.
We tried slavery. We don't want it any more.
Well, there are more slaves in the world today than at any time in the past. Just ask AI or an organization like "Walk Free." So "we" is a limited selection of humanity, it seems. And throughout history, slavery is one of the most common things human beings ever practiced. You just don't kmow about all that, because you apparently live in the comfortable West. Lots of human beings not only wanted slavery, but still want it.
Try suggesting that Ukrainians ought to use Russian prisoners as slaves.
Well, the word "slave" comes from "Slav," as in "Slavic," so your suggestion is historically not impossible. The very concept of a "slave" has come from that part of the world.
But I still haven't seen how you show that they're wrong for having slaves. Or right. I'll take either, if you've got it.
You wanted an example how ethics is investigated or tested.
And slavery has been tried and rejected by the Western societies.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:05 pm
by phyllo
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:01 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:59 pm
Hey, Humanism IS nonsense. Don't blame me.
I blame you for saying a bunch of nonsense about humanism.
Which humanist manifesto or text says that anything goes in ethics?
The phrase "anything goes" is your own, not mine. You made it up, so you'll have to find it yourself. But I'll tell you what you can find in Humanism: that they have no way of justifying their telling you that there's anything that DOESN'T "go," to use your term. So by process of elimination...
You used this phrasing:
Well, one of the most commonly repeated Humanist aphorisms, occuring both in their manifestos and frequently repeated to each other, is "Nothing human is alien to me." (Everybody from Publius Terence Afer, the Roman playwright, to Maya Angelou, the modern novelist have quoted it with approval.) But if we believe that, it means that everything humans have ever done is part of what it means to be human, and has to be something that Humanism approves, therefore.
Re: Humanist Ethics
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:43 pm
by Immanuel Can
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 3:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:58 pm
phyllo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 2:39 pm
What human
We tried slavery. We don't want it any more.
Well, there are more slaves in the world today than at any time in the past. Just ask AI or an organization like "Walk Free." So "we" is a limited selection of humanity, it seems. And throughout history, slavery is one of the most common things human beings ever practiced. You just don't kmow about all that, because you apparently live in the comfortable West. Lots of human beings not only wanted slavery, but still want it.
Try suggesting that Ukrainians ought to use Russian prisoners as slaves.
Well, the word "slave" comes from "Slav," as in "Slavic," so your suggestion is historically not impossible. The very concept of a "slave" has come from that part of the world.
But I still haven't seen how you show that they're wrong for having slaves. Or right. I'll take either, if you've got it.
You wanted an example how ethics is investigated or tested.
And slavery has been tried and rejected by the Western societies.
Oh. So by "Humanism" you mean that only people in Western societies count as "human"?
Because otherwise, you've got to include everybody...and you're outnumbered on the question of slavery, and by a lot.
"Investigated" means "find out what Western societies believe." And "test" means, "find out what Western societies believe." Got it.