The Philosophy Discussion Forum

RickLewis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 21, 2026 1:44 am Perhaps you, me and Immanuel Can are having a conversation which is itself a metaphor for the interacton of Ahab, "Ishmael" and the White Whale? But in that case, which of us is which?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 3:23 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 1:53 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 1:23 am
Melville was a great writer. But nobody should imagine he was compable to Milton, whose work was so epic that for two subsequent centuries poets nearly gave up on the epic form, and lamented that the greatest work in English had already been written before they arrived. And nobody should call him a Shakespeare, whose works were not only much more voluminous, but whose profundity poetic use of language has spawned whole cities dedicated to his memory, has been read and quoted more than any other work (save the Bible itself, which Shakespeare himself frequently quoted on at least 1,200 occasions) and continues to be the height of dramatic achievement even to the present day.

Melville was good. Very good. But he wasn't nearly that good. And anybody can see that.

No one disputes the greatness of Shakespeare or Milton, both supremely underrated in their time and for a long time as also happened with Melville. What I'm saying is the prose of Moby Dick can be as majestic, profound, nuanced and deeply psychological as that written by Shakespeare or Milton whether expressed as prose or poetry.

Sorry. Nope. It doesn't come close, except in rare passages. Shakespeare and Milton could do it for days. And you can see by the residual impact: Melville is largely only celebrated in America, where he's less read than celebrated by reputation, and generally not as much as, say, Twain, Fitzgerald or Hemingway. Shakespeare and Milton are true world-scale talents.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 12:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 3:23 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 1:53 am

No one disputes the greatness of Shakespeare or Milton, both supremely underrated in their time and for a long time as also happened with Melville. What I'm saying is the prose of Moby Dick can be as majestic, profound, nuanced and deeply psychological as that written by Shakespeare or Milton whether expressed as prose or poetry.

Sorry. Nope. It doesn't come close, except in rare passages. Shakespeare and Milton could do it for days. And you can see by the residual impact: Melville is largely only celebrated in America, where he's less read than celebrated by reputation, and generally not as much as, say, Twain, Fitzgerald or Hemingway. Shakespeare and Milton are true world-scale talents.

So is it the fact that Moby Dick starts off on the footing of identifying with Ishmael (a less central figure of the Bible) that you don't think the book is among the great classics of world literature? What are your thoughts on Hawthorn's The Scarlet Letter?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 6:37 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 12:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 3:23 am
Sorry. Nope. It doesn't come close, except in rare passages. Shakespeare and Milton could do it for days. And you can see by the residual impact: Melville is largely only celebrated in America, where he's less read than celebrated by reputation, and generally not as much as, say, Twain, Fitzgerald or Hemingway. Shakespeare and Milton are true world-scale talents.

So is it the fact that Moby Dick starts off on the footing of identifying with Ishmael (a less central figure of the Bible) that you don't think the book is among the great classics of world literature? What are your thoughts on Hawthorn's The Scarlet Letter?

That's a bizarre suggestion. Tell me where you got that strange idea, Gary?

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 7:36 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 6:37 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 12:37 pm

So is it the fact that Moby Dick starts off on the footing of identifying with Ishmael (a less central figure of the Bible) that you don't think the book is among the great classics of world literature? What are your thoughts on Hawthorn's The Scarlet Letter?

That's a bizarre suggestion. Tell me where you got that strange idea, Gary?

Your tastes are very bizarre to me and they often revolve around the Bible or Bible apologetics.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 1:53 am No one disputes the greatness of Shakespeare or Milton, both supremely underrated in their time and for a long time as also happened with Melville. What I'm saying is the prose of Moby Dick can be as majestic, profound, nuanced and deeply psychological as that written by Shakespeare or Milton whether expressed as prose or poetry.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 11:37 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 1:53 am No one disputes the greatness of Shakespeare or Milton, both supremely underrated in their time and for a long time as also happened with Melville. What I'm saying is the prose of Moby Dick can be as majestic, profound, nuanced and deeply psychological as that written by Shakespeare or Milton whether expressed as prose or poetry.

I will not venture an opinion on Milton. But saying Shakespeare "supremely underrated in his day" is misleading. Remember, HE didn't preserve the text of his plays (wasn't done, no copyright protection, so you didn't want any hard copies out there). And he was financially very successful, got a cut of the gate, and commanding high fees for doing an emergency rewrite of a scene or act in a competitor's play that was n risk of flopping.

No, the "social elite"/official taste setters disliked his vulgar (to them) new style of more natural sounding speech. So would prefer the more stylized poetry of say Kit Marlowe. But there were people who thought otherwise, which is why we have the complete texts of almost all his plays. They thought it important to preserve for posterity.