Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 7:28 pm NYTs today:

President Trump has secretly signed a directive to the Pentagon to begin using military force against certain Latin American drug cartels that his administration has deemed terrorist organizations, according to people familiar with the matter.

The decision to bring the American military into the fight is the most aggressive step so far in the administration’s escalating campaign against the cartels. It signals Mr. Trump’s continued willingness to use military forces to carry out what has primarily been considered a law enforcement responsibility to curb the flow of fentanyl and other illegal drugs.

The order provides an official basis for the possibility of direct military operations at sea and on foreign soil against cartels.

U.S. military officials have started drawing up options for how the military could go after the groups, the people familiar with the conversations said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive internal deliberations.

Seems necessary, despite the illegality. The cartels have far too much power in Mexico.

Destroy them with unmatched destructive violence. Incinerate them.

I love Mexican food and everything but I hardly give a rat’s ass for wounded Mexican pride. They cannot control the problem nor their own state.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 10:28 am Stopping illegal drugs like Fentanyl entering the US is a good aim. But Trump's method destroys US justice whenever his agency kills and injures or deports suspects without any opportunity to defend themselves.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 1:49 pm In regard to supposed deportations. It is largely show. It is impossible to deport even 1 million people. Impossible to deport 5 million.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 2:14 pm And I disagree very much with your impossible. Sadly, more than 5 million "expelled from countries they were in in just a few years mid 20th Century”. If it has been done, certainly possible.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 4:37 pm The likelihood of people like her being deported is very small.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 7:33 am They've extra-judiciously executed another boatload of Colombian-Venezuelan fentanyl drug runners.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 7:33 am They've extra-judiciously executed another boatload of Colombian-Venezuelan fentanyl drug runners.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 1:49 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 10:28 am Stopping illegal drugs like Fentanyl entering the US is a good aim. But Trump's method destroys US justice whenever his agency kills and injures or deports suspects without any opportunity to defend themselves.

I am of two minds here. I would relish, selfishly, if there were really devastating damage done to the cartels, their compounds, their chiefs, etc. But (humor and sensationalism aside) I am unsure what the best realistic plan should be.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 1:49 pm Trump’s methods are too crude, too random, too variable.

The Venezuela thing is complex. It is definitely time for Maduro to be forced out. But truthfully, and typically, the US Gov is just as much (more) interested in Venezuelan oil.

It might interest you to know that as a cyclist on the roads of Colombia I regularly see, and talk to, groups of refugees fleeing Venezuela and (literally) walking across the country. Sometimes whole families, kids, babies. It’s unreal in its realism.

Obviously, the drug epidemic has complex roots.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 1:49 pm Not the least being lack of opportunities, bad education, and decades of policies that gutted manufacturing. The suppliers are one thing, but the consumers are really the issue.

In regard to supposed deportations. It is largely show. It is impossible to deport even 1 million people. Impossible to deport 5 million. But what people see in their news feeds will keep them from risking leaving home to emigrate (illegally) to the US. So as a public relations stunt it ‘works’.

The majority of recent migrants will eventually be incorporated. I’ve met number of them (when in the States) and generally find them quite decent. Many came in with legal permission offered by the App that Biden created. They submitted their info and got a legal pass to enter.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 1:07 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 7:33 am They've extra-judiciously executed another boatload of Colombian-Venezuelan fentanyl drug runners.

How full? The thing about actual drug running is that you don't put very many people in the boat, there's a driver and somebody to unload and that's usually about it.

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 12:48 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 7:33 am They've extra-judiciously executed another boatload of Colombian-Venezuelan fentanyl drug runners.

just like we extra-judiciously executed cities filled with civilians... some bombs are smaller than others

-Imp

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 12:13 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 12:48 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 7:33 am They've extra-judiciously executed another boatload of Colombian-Venezuelan fentanyl drug runners.

just like we extra-judiciously executed cities filled with civilians... some bombs are smaller than others

-Imp

What, in total war? What was extra-judicial about it? An open question. War had been declared. One of Churchill's diktats was, whatever they do, do twice. They started it. Due process was served. Some large throwback part of me actually approves of using incidentally lethal force to cost effectively destroy narcotics without any vastly more expensive due process, where life isn't cheap. But what precedent does it set?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 12:35 am

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 12:13 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Sep 26, 2025 12:48 pm

just like we extra-judiciously executed cities filled with civilians... some bombs are smaller than others

-Imp

What, in total war? What was extra-judicial about it? An open question. War had been declared. One of Churchill's diktats was, whatever they do, do twice. They started it. Due process was served. Some large throwback part of me actually approves of using incidentally lethal force to cost effectively destroy narcotics without any vastly more expensive due process, where life isn't cheap. But what precedent does it set?

you haven't heard of the war against drugs? the war on crime?

what precedent? be careful who you try to kill with drugs, they may kill you back...

-Imp

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 1:49 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 08, 2025 10:28 am Stopping illegal drugs like Fentanyl entering the US is a good aim. But Trump's method destroys US justice whenever his agency kills and injures or deports suspects without any opportunity to defend themselves.

I am of two minds here. I would relish, selfishly, if there were really devastating damage done to the cartels, their compounds, their chiefs, etc. But (humor and sensationalism aside) I am unsure what the best realistic plan should be.

Trump’s methods are too crude, too random, too variable.

The Venezuela thing is complex. It is definitely time for Maduro to be forced out. But truthfully, and typically, the US Gov is just as much (more) interested in Venezuelan oil.

It might interest you to know that as a cyclist on the roads of Colombia I regularly see, and talk to, groups of refugees fleeing Venezuela and (literally) walking across the country. Sometimes whole families, kids, babies. It’s unreal in its realism.

Obviously, the drug epidemic has complex roots. Not the least being lack of opportunities, bad education, and decades of policies that gutted manufacturing. The suppliers are one thing, but the consumers are really the issue.

In regard to supposed deportations. It is largely show. It is impossible to deport even 1 million people. Impossible to deport 5 million. But what people see in their news feeds will keep them from risking leaving home to emigrate (illegally) to the US. So as a public relations stunt it ‘works’.

The majority of recent migrants will eventually be incorporated. I’ve met number of them (when in the States) and generally find them quite decent. Many came in with legal permission offered by the App that Biden created. They submitted their info and got a legal pass to enter.

In regard to supposed deportations. It is largely show. It is impossible to deport even 1 million people. Impossible to deport 5 million. But what people see in their news feeds will keep them from risking leaving home to emigrate (illegally) to the US. So as a public relations stunt it ‘works’

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 8:10 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 12:35 am

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 12:13 am
What, in total war? What was extra-judicial about it? An open question. War had been declared. One of Churchill's diktats was, whatever they do, do twice. They started it. Due process was served. Some large throwback part of me actually approves of using incidentally lethal force to cost effectively destroy narcotics without any vastly more expensive due process, where life isn't cheap. But what precedent does it set?

you haven't heard of the war against drugs? the war on crime?

what precedent? be careful who you try to kill with drugs, they may kill you back...

-Imp

Riiiight. Yeah. If you won't have social justice, you must have war and order.