Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:42 pm I do believe, Skep, we've been given the brush off.

Not you yet, dear henry, dear henry, not you yet, dear henry, not yet. See postscript.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:34 pm

That's apples & Buicks (even worse than apples & oranges).

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:51 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:34 pm

That's apples & Buicks (even worse than apples & oranges).

Whatever you say, dear henry, dear henry, whatever you say, dear henry, whatever.

I said (after shaving (you have to box it in don't you)):
The single universe perspective is infinitely complex, by Kolmogorov complexity, compared with the infinite multiverse.

Copilot said:
That's an interesting point! Kolmogorov complexity, which measures the complexity of an object based on the length of the shortest possible description of it, can indeed provide a unique perspective on this topic.

Single Universe Complexity
High Complexity: Describing a single, finite universe with all its specific details, laws, and constants can be incredibly complex. Each unique aspect of our universe adds to its overall complexity.

Infinite Multiverse Simplicity
Lower Complexity: The multiverse theory, despite its vastness, can be described more simply in some ways. The idea of an infinite number of universes, each with varying properties, might have a more straightforward description in terms of the underlying principles that generate these universes.

Philosophical Implications
Particularity vs. Generality: The single universe model requires a detailed, specific description, making it seem more complex. In contrast, the multiverse model can be described by a general principle of infinite variation, which might be simpler in terms of Kolmogorov complexity.

Your observation highlights how different frameworks can influence our perception of complexity and simplicity. It's a fascinating way to think about the nature of our universe and the potential multiverse. Are there other concepts in theoretical physics or cosmology that you find particularly intriguing?

Take you pick according to disposition. Of cognitive bias.

I'm a most simple minded man.

And how did we get here from the fallacy of fine tuning?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Wed Apr 23, 2025 3:52 pm a uni verse without a uni chorus lacks rhythm...

-Imp

True. Which resonates doesn't it? Nothing changes, nothing is new, the same old same old. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. I could listen to Picking Up the Pieces by The Average White Band till Cocytus unfreezes and Satan is let loose.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:03 pm

As you like.

'nuff said.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:04 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:03 pm

As you like.

'nuff said.

Thumb up.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:49 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Apr 23, 2025 2:03 pm the Absurdity of Justifying the Refutation of it with Infinite Multiverses.

Now obviously infinite multiverses exist, by strong uniformitarianism (SU)

Obviously how? It's just an arbitrary philosophical assumption.

It's as arbitrary as infinite multi-multiverses; or infinite multi-multi-multi-verses.

It simply becomes a topological argument. How many levels of nesting do you want?

Self-tuning doesn't address anything if you can't explain why any given universe converges towards some equilibrium state; and why different universes might converge to different equilibrium states. Do all universes even converge to an equilibrium?

If you can have multiverses why can't you have two sorts of multi-multi-verses: one with uniform multiverses; one with non-uniform multiverses?

If you allow any kind if plurality/multiplicity in your cosmology; you simply can't prevent infantry/combinatorial explosions via induction.
The only limiting principle at play is Occam's razor which leads directly to theistic thought.

One universe. Fine Tuning explained by a single entity. Of course this posits its own explanatory challenges,

Just out of curiosity, and this applies to absolutely any one, 'What 'explanatory challenges' could One Universe possibly put forward?'

To me the One, and only infinite and eternal, Universe is in equilibrium, always. And, if any part of this One Universe starts putting the 'natural order' of things 'out of balance', then some thing will 'give way'. I might suggest that 'that' would be the ending of, or the extinction of, 'the very thing' putting other things 'out of wack' or 'off balance'.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:49 pm but it poses far fewer challenges than explaining a multi-multi-multi-multi-multi-..........-verse.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 1:49 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Wed Apr 23, 2025 2:03 pm the Absurdity of Justifying the Refutation of it with Infinite Multiverses.

Now obviously infinite multiverses exist, by strong uniformitarianism (SU)

(i) Obviously how? It's just an arbitrary philosophical assumption.

(ii) It's as arbitrary as infinite multi-multiverses; or infinite multi-multi-multi-verses.

(iii) It simply becomes a topological argument. How many levels of nesting do you want?

(iv) Self-tuning doesn't address anything if you can't explain why any given universe converges towards some equilibrium state; and why different universes might converge to different equilibrium states. Do all universes even converge to an equilibrium?

(v) If you can have multiverses why can't you have two sorts of multi-multi-verses: one with uniform multiverses; one with non-uniform multiverses?

(vi) If you allow any kind if plurality/multiplicity in your cosmology; you simply can't prevent infantry/combinatorial explosions via induction.
The only limiting principle at play is Occam's razor which leads directly to theistic thought.

(vii) One universe. Fine Tuning explained by a single entity. Of course this posits its own explanatory challenges, but it poses far fewer challenges than explaining a multi-multi-multi-multi-multi-..........-verse.

(i) If one exists, infinite do.
(ii) How?
(iii) None. It's not about nesting.
(iv) They all start indistinguishably. I.e. the same for all intents and purposes. I know of no reason whatsoever to dispense with strong uniformitarianism.
(v) They're not necessary.
(vi) Occam, nature, excludes theism. The utter tracelessness does independently.
(vii) Is that this one universe? Or is this a subset of an infinite universe? Of which there must be infinite. Any singular, particular instantiation is impossible in God (including incarnations) or no. There cannot be one of anything.

What a Truly absolutely absurd and ridiculous claim 'this one' is.

Even if there were many universes, then they would all exist in Totality, all-there-is, and/or Everything, of which, of course and obviously, there could only ever be just One.

Talk about another prime example by "martin peter clarke" presenting how pre-existing beliefs and presumptions lead people to make and say some of the most outlandish claims, in order to just 'try to' 'justify' what they believe is absolutely true.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm Only infinite of everything. [One way or the other. Or tending to it in finite entities.] In God or no. Including God of course. There would be infinite. There is, of course, no need for infinite nesting. Universes don't beget universes. Multiverses likewise.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:14 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:00 pm

If one exists, infinite do.

Sorry, Martin, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Can you explain (caveman-level, if you can)?

That's all I can manage henry.

Which is, exactly, why your beliefs and claims, here, do not 'stand up' at all.

If one can not even provide 'a definition' for 'the words' that they are using, but 'they' want others to follow, believe, and/or accept their beliefs and claims, then they will be very sadly lost.

If all 'this one' can say and state, here, is:
'If one exists, infinite do.'

And, can not explain any thing at all, here, then this shows and proves just how Truly lost and confused 'this one' really is, here.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm The existence of only a single, finite universe, in, after eternity, is infinitely more complex, more inexplicable, than the existence of infinite, from eternity.

Once again, there is only One Universe, only, and which is infinite, and eternal, and not finite at all.

And, for absolutely any one who would like the irrefutable proofs for this Fact, then, as always, let 'us' have a discussion.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm Nature wouldn't do just one finite universe.

Nature could not do just one finite universe, for just the simple fact that 'nature' would not have begun until 'the finite universe', itself, begun, and obviously one or more finite universes could begin. (Unless of course one wants to change 'the definition' of the 'universe' word with words that refer to finite and transient.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm Neither could God of course.

Why are you introducing words like 'God', here, in your attempt to 'try to' deny and dispute some thing else?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm If we say the universe is infinite, a single connected all, beyond this finite observable, and former observable, one, there have to be an infinity of those finite universes in each of an infinity of single connected alls. Which isn't necessary.

1. There is no beyond 'this finite observable universe' because there is no 'finite observable universe'. That you human beings can physically only observe just a 'part of' this One and only infinite and eternal Universe, then that never ever means that what you human beings 'see' is finite, bounded, nor limited.

2. There was no 'former observable finite universe'. Now, obviously what you human beings are able to physically observe gets larger or more with more advanced viewing apparatuses. But, 'this' never means that what you are observing, in regards to the Universe, Itself, is, nor was, limited, bounded, nor finite.

3, There does not 'have to be' a so-called 'infinity' of, (your unsubstantiated claimed own personally declared) 'finite universes', at all. (you are just letting your own pre-existing beliefs to distort your ability to 'look' and 'see', here.)

4. How could it even be logically possible, let alone physically possible, to have any number of so-called 'single connected alls'?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm What needs more complex explanation?

your, attempts at, explanation/s just provide more nonsensical and illogical complexities.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 3:44 pm eternity * eternity (which makes no sense at all, in God or no)

or

...***... i.e an infinity of *s

?

The very reason you can not explain what you are 'trying' your hardest to declare and claim, here, is because it is simply just unexplainable.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:34 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:41 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 4:14 pm

Yeah, I guess my bucket has too many holes in it cuz in no way does a multiverse seem more reasonable, sensible, or logical than a universe (closed or open; finite or infinite).

What needs more complex explanation?

I wanted a simpler one (fit for a caveman).

OK.

If you discovered a flower (universe) growing in your window box that is glaringly new to science, and no one else ever did, is that easier or harder to explain than dandelions (multiverse)?

But, One Universe, nor even many universes, exist or grow in other things.

you just end up adding more and more layers of completely unnecessary complexities, here.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm I said (after shaving (you have to box it in don't you)):
The single universe perspective is infinitely complex, by Kolmogorov complexity, compared with the infinite multiverse.

But, there is absolutely no complexity at all in regards to not just what the One, and only infinite and eternal, Universe is made up of, exactly, but also in regards to how this One Universe actually works is, really, very simple and very easy to understand, and explain, as well.

But, obviously while one is holding onto and maintaining a contrary belief, they will never be understand and comprehend the actual Truly simplicity to all-of-this, here.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Copilot said:
That's an interesting point! Kolmogorov complexity, which measures the complexity of an object based on the length of the shortest possible description of it, can indeed provide a unique perspective on this topic.

Single Universe Complexity
High Complexity: Describing a single, finite universe with all its specific details, laws, and constants can be incredibly complex. Each unique aspect of our universe adds to its overall complexity.

Of course it is not just difficult to even begin to 'try to' explain a 'finite universe', it is actually an impossible thing to do. And, this is just simply because a beginning and/or ending Universe is both a logical/theoretical, and a physical/empirical impossibility.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Infinite Multiverse Simplicity
Lower Complexity: The multiverse theory, despite its vastness, can be described more simply in some ways. The idea of an infinite number of universes, each with varying properties, might have a more straightforward description in terms of the underlying principles that generate these universes.

1. How is the 'universe' word being defined, here, exactly?

2. What separates these claimed different 'universes', exactly?

3. How does one differentiate 'the point', or 'boundary', between these proposed different 'universes', exactly.

4. How do these supposed and alleged different 'universe' begin, and end, exactly?

5. Where do these declared different 'universes' come from and go to, exactly?

6. When do these claimed different 'universes' begin, and end, exactly?

Show and explain, to the readers, here, the actual 'simplicity', here.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Philosophical Implications
Particularity vs. Generality: The single universe model requires a detailed, specific description, making it seem more complex.

Most people require a detailed and specific description when what one is 'talking about' is claimed to be the actual Truth of things.

'This', I hope, is not just expected, but given and provided, as well.

And, so far you are absolutely failing, completely, in providing absolutely any details, let alone specific descriptions in regards to your own person claim and declaration that there are 'many universes'.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm In contrast, the multiverse model can be described by a general principle of infinite variation, which might be simpler in terms of Kolmogorov complexity.

The only one that you are fooling and deceiving, here, is "yourself" "martin peter clarke".

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Your observation highlights how different frameworks can influence our perception of complexity and simplicity. It's a fascinating way to think about the nature of our universe and the potential multiverse.

Why do you use the words, 'our universe', and, 'potential multiverse', here, exactly?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Are there other concepts in theoretical physics or cosmology that you find particularly intriguing?

What 'I' would find very intriguing, if I did not already know and understood, is how and why you would believe some thing so absolutely, when you do not have one single piece of proof for?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm Take you pick according to disposition. Of cognitive bias.

I'm a most simple minded man.

And how did we get here from the fallacy of fine tuning?

All you have essentially done above, here, is just add the word, 'Complexity', after the words, 'Single Universe', and, the word, 'Simplicity', after the words, 'Infinite Multiverse', as though 'this' is somehow true and right, and stands in and of itself, all by its own self.

The very Fact that you will not define your own words, here, and have not yet proved a single claim, here, shows and proves any talk about 'finite or multi verses' is impossible without unsubstantiated and unnecessary complexities added on.

In contrast the One and only infinite and eternal Universe can not be just explained, and understood and comprehended, in the most simplest and easiest way, also not just what this Universe is fundamentally made up of, exactly, how It works, exactly, but also the reason of why It exists can also be explained, and understood, in the very most simplest and easiest of ways.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm I said (after shaving (you have to box it in don't you)):
The single universe perspective is infinitely complex, by Kolmogorov complexity, compared with the infinite multiverse.

You think the Kolmogorov complexity of a single infinitely complex universe is higher than that of a multitude of infinitely complex universes?!?

Do you also think 1 > infinity?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:10 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:06 pm I said (after shaving (you have to box it in don't you)):
The single universe perspective is infinitely complex, by Kolmogorov complexity, compared with the infinite multiverse.

You think the Kolmogorov complexity of a single infinitely complex universe is higher than that of a multitude of infinitely complex universes?!?

Do you also think 1 > infinity?

I don't think it. I know it. That's what it entails. In my beholder's share. He'd agree.

accelafine wrote: ↑Thu Apr 24, 2025 12:55 am Why do I keep reading this as 'The fallacy of fine tuna'?

Perhaps, some people don't like sushi?