Philosophy Now Forum

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 7:45 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 6:57 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:00 pm Islam has had over a thousand years to reach a consensus. I don't think it's happening

Christianity's had twice that.

I don't see why that's relevant. Nobody here is claiming that for Christianity, only for Islam.

What, consensus?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:25 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 7:45 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 6:57 pm
Christianity's had twice that.

I don't see why that's relevant. Nobody here is claiming that for Christianity, only for Islam.

What, consensus?

right, consensus, "deductive closure" - godelian is claiming all that for islam only.

godelian is upset since converting to Islame; each and everyday he has to grapple with whether he's wrong about Christ being GOD incarnate and that indeed, MorHamMAD was a false prophet out to profit by deceiving the masses about the Truth to Christ's death and resurrection.

One of the problems he's got, when the penny finally drops, is that his Muzzle 'Em 'brothers' are instructed to slaughter him, should he decide to return to the Truth of GOD.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:49 pm

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:25 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 7:45 pm

I don't see why that's relevant. Nobody here is claiming that for Christianity, only for Islam.

What, consensus?

right, consensus, "deductive closure" - godelian is claiming all that for islam only.

Sorry, right, thanks. I won't read him directly. Does he mean epistemic? What's his first truth, that makes all the propositions of Islam true? That's rhetorical, as there isn't one for us. The Shahada I presume. It is a matter of (true) religion, therefore it is true and all that follows is true. Within Islam, I reckon that's true. Closed indeed. Thomism and Jung and feeling based religions and the like all do that. Strange warmings of the heart. They are utterly impenetrably closed, hermetically sealed. Untouchable. I respect that. The passion that enslaves reason.

Our passion is reason.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 9:17 pm One of the problems he's got, when the penny finally drops, is that his Muzzle 'Em 'brothers' are instructed to slaughter him, should he decide to return to the Truth of GOD.

I have never left the truth of God. I have just left behind the fake divinities, such as the son of God, the aunt of God, and the fake cousin of God.

I simply do not believe that a human can be a family member of God.

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:49 pm right, consensus, "deductive closure" - godelian is claiming all that for islam only.

I claim that deductive closure and eventual consistency are the natural outcomes in a decentralized religion.

Before emperor Theodosius declared Christianity to be state religion and conferred a monopoly on interpretation to the Catholic Church, this was also the case in Christianity. The emperor's action derailed the natural evolution of Christian doctrine.

Gemini

In 380 AD, Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. This edict, known as the Edict of Thessalonica, declared Nicene Christianity as the only legitimate imperial religion, effectively outlawing other faiths. This decision marked a significant turning point, as it ended the empire's traditional religious tolerance and established a close relationship between the Christian church and the state. :

Theodosius's Edict:

Theodosius's edict, issued in Thessalonica, not only established Nicene Christianity as the official religion but also condemned other Christian beliefs as heresies and authorized their punishment, according to the edict.

After 380 AD, deductive closure and eventual consistency became impossible in Christianity, simply because these have never been goals of the Catholic Church's living magisterium:

Gemini

In Catholic theology, the "living Magisterium" refers to the ongoing, authoritative teaching role of the Church, primarily exercised by the Pope and bishops in communion with him, in interpreting and transmitting divine revelation.

Centralized interpretation will never exhibit deductive closure nor eventual consistency. Only decentralization can achieve this:

Gemini

Eventual consistency in distributed systems means that updates to data are not immediately reflected across all copies of the data, but rather, they are guaranteed to eventually propagate and become consistent across the entire system if no further updates occur.

A centralized Church hijacks this natural process and thoroughly degrades its desired properties. The depravity of Christianity is ultimately rooted in the depravity of the Church.

What is it old chap? If only they could talk eh?

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 6:57 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 1:00 pm Islam has had over a thousand years to reach a consensus. I don't think it's happening

Christianity's had twice that.

Philosophy has had even more. The consensus is in spirit, not in words.

The bickering/dialectic is just social theater.

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 am I have never left the truth of God.

You don't strike me as someone at peace with a Godly truth.

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 am I simply do not believe that a human can be a family member of God.

Which leaves you out of God's grace, no?

Look! There's another one!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 9:17 pm godelian is upset since converting to Islame; each and everyday he has to grapple with whether he's wrong about Christ being GOD incarnate and that indeed, MorHamMAD was a false prophet out to profit by deceiving the masses about the Truth to Christ's death and resurrection.

One of the problems he's got, when the penny finally drops, is that his Muzzle 'Em 'brothers' are instructed to slaughter him, should he decide to return to the Truth of GOD.

One's choice of doctrine (and the message they choose to amplify from it) always says more about them than anything the doctrine contains.

Martin Peter Clarke wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 8:21 am Look! There's another one!

And another one!

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:52 am A centralized Church hijacks this natural process and thoroughly degrades its desired properties. The depravity of Christianity is ultimately rooted in the depravity of the Church.

Christianity is not centralized. You are working hard to make it a monolith.

Under which central Church do all denominations exist?

You seem to confuse the structure of Roman Catholicism for all of Christendom because you are critiquing from the outside.
On the inside you get the same archetypes as in most philosophy. Protestants are the relativists of Christendom - it appeals a lot to the young/edgy types.

Eastern Orthodox are the protectors of tradition. Like how Philosophers defend a tradition they cannot explicate - they simply practice it.

Pentecostals are the empiricists.
The Anglicans are the pragmatists.
The Baptists are the libertarians.
The Methodists are the social reformers.

They capture different psychologies (operating systems) for approaching religious epistemology.
It's all a game of musical chairs; or something akin to wearing and changing hats - you pick the "hat" that works for your current needs or personality.

This fluidity is anything but the rigid monolithic hierarchy you are trying to paint.

The theme of "unity through multiplicity" maintains. And that's the Unity of God.

In the absence of sparrows chirruping beyond my patio doors on this fine morning, that's good to see.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 8:19 am

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 am I have never left the truth of God.

You don't strike me as someone at peace with a Godly truth.

godelian wrote: ↑Tue Jul 08, 2025 1:36 am I simply do not believe that a human can be a family member of God.

Which leaves you out of God's grace, no?

ChatGPT: Create a TPTP/FOF script for use with the Vampire theorem prover that the following propositions are valid: "God created the universe. Jesus was God. Jesus was a man. Therefore, a man created the universe."

Code: Select all

% ----- Axioms -----
fof(ax1, axiom, created(god, universe)).
fof(ax2, axiom, jesus = god).
fof(ax3, axiom, man(jesus)).

% ----- Conjecture -----
fof(conclusion, conjecture, ? [X] : (man(X) & created(X, universe))).

I have tried the script and it runs like a charm:

$ ./vampire universe.p
% SZS status Theorem for universe
% SZS output start Proof for universe
fof(f13,plain,(
...
% SZS output end Proof for universe
% ------------------------------
% Version: Vampire 4.9 (commit 5ad494e78 on 2024-06-14 14:05:27 +0100)
% Linked with Z3 4.12.3.0 79bbbf76d0c123481c8ca05cd3a98939270074d3 z3-4.8.4-7980-g79bbbf76d

The proposition is well within the deductive closure of Christian doctrine.

ChatGPT: Can a man create something like a physical universe?

In short: no, a man (or humanity collectively) cannot currently create something on the scale of a physical universe in the sense of our observable cosmos — a space-time continuum with matter, energy, physical laws, and potentially billions of galaxies.

1. Not Possible: Creating a Physical Universe from Scratch

Creating a new universe in the same way our own emerged from the Big Bang — with independent spacetime, matter, and physical constants — is far beyond our current technological or physical understanding. Major obstacles include:
No access to the initial conditions of universe creation (like singularities or quantum gravity states).
No evidence that such a thing can be done in principle, not even in advanced theoretical physics.
Energy and scale limitations — the energy required would vastly exceed anything we could harness.

So, let's conclude that the Christian doctrine contains lots of bullshit in its deductive closure. Christianity is clearly a bullshit belief system.