Philosophy Now Forum

Age wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:47 am
But, WHY can 'you', supposedly, ONLY KNOW 'life', while 'we', ALSO, KNOW so-called 'death', AS WELL?

Before death of the body, what we can only know of the experience of death is an inference based on either witnessing physical death, or imagining physical death. Since the presence of thought prevents imagining nothing, then nothing cannot be imagined.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm 2. Who owns the life we have?

The creator of the life. Every body and brain is like a leaseholder with the responsibility of upkeep.

If one dies in agony, who will remember what the experience was like for the one who died?

Those who remember the agony that 'that one' was in when it so-called 'died'?

Who ELSE could 'remember' what 'the experience' was like for 'the one' who 'died'?

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm From the scant information available, it won't be the one who died, therefore it won't be anyone.

What people like 'this one' USE for 'logic' I REALLY WONDER.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm Any witnesses will be inferring based on appearance of the experiencer, but not the experience itself.

What?

While some are 'dying', surely even, to you, they can confess and share that they are 'IN agony', which if you HAD TO WITNESS 'those around you' DYING, IN WAR, then you might ALSO BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE, and KNOW, 'the AGONY' some ARE IN, as 'they DIE'.

And, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN one HEARS, SEES, and thus RECOGNIZES 'the AGONY' some ARE IN, whilst they ARE DYING, then 'that one', OBVIOUSLY, is ONE of the 'who' WHO WILL REMEMBER what 'the experience', was like, for 'the one' who 'DIED'.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm Witnesses have noticed that death can bring peace.

So, then 'those witnesses' WILL ALSO BE one of 'those' 'who' REMEMBER what 'the experience' was like FOR 'the one', 'who DIED', AS WELL OBVIOUSLY.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm I heard a story of a priest who died during the atrocities of WWII. Men, women and children from a village had been herded into an underground area to be murdered by the military, lots of people. They were going out of their minds with panic and fear. A priest asked to go down there with them, knowing the certainty of death, and when he went down there with the doomed he eased their suffering before death.

HOW, EXACTLY and SUPPOSEDLY?

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm The screaming and panic stopped. The priest was living as he had always lived, right until the last breath.

Therefore, 'those' 'who' SHARED 'this CLAIM' are 'some of those' 'who' REMEMBER 'the experiences' of 'the ones' 'that DIED'.

Hopefully, your QUESTION, above, has 'now' BEEN ANSWERED, FOR 'you'.

Alexiev wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:32 am

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm 2. Who owns the life we have?

The creator of the life. Every body and brain is like a leaseholder with the responsibility of upkeep.

If one dies in agony, who will remember what the experience was like for the one who died? From the scant information available, it won't be the one who died, therefore it won't be anyone. Any witnesses will be inferring based on appearance of the experiencer, but not the experience itself. Witnesses have noticed that death can bring peace. I heard a story of a priest who died during the atrocities of WWII. Men, women and children from a village had been herded into an underground area to be murdered by the military, lots of people. They were going out of their minds with panic and fear. A priest asked to go down there with them, knowing the certainty of death, and when he went down there with the doomed he eased their suffering before death. The screaming and panic stopped. The priest was living as he had always lived, right until the last breath.

Of course my friend was not living as she had always lived. She was trapped inside her uncompliant body, barely able to talk, or move, or swallow.

Personally, I don't think I'd do it, although I can't be sure. I'd wonder what insights the end might bring.

1. Do you PRESUME or BELIEVE that the so-called 'end' might bring so-called 'insights'?

2. Were you NOT YET AWARE that 'the end' STILL ARRIVES, UNDER euthanasia OR not? So, under euthanasia IF there were ANY so-called 'insights' TO COME, then 'they' WOULD ARRIVE EARLIER, OBVIOUSLY.

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 8:08 pm When assisted suicide was on the ballot in Oregon (the first polity to legalize it, although it was already common in the Netherlands), I had mixed feelings. Like acel I thought the technicality that a physician had to certify imminent death was silly. Either a competent adult should be able to do the deed or not. I was also concerned with families pressuring the elderly to take the option in order to preserve an inheritance. This is a particularly troubling possibility in the U.S., where we don’t have National health insurance. I've actually looked into the issue since, and based on the evidence these fears were unfounded.

Are you UNDER SOME SORT OF DELUSION that if there were ANY who had considered the EARLIER than WANTED 'assisted suicide', or who had committed it, that they would be OPEN and Honest ABOUT it?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm It does sound awful.

But maybe there are more questions.

1. We have one life...what does it mean to give up any moment of it?

By "one life" are you suggesting one lifetime? You can't possibly know that.

Maybe "immanuel can", and even 'you', can NOT YET possibly know, but 'I' DO.

'you' human beings can ONLY have 'one life' OR 'one lifetime' if you like.

It is A physical, mental, and theoretical IMPOSSIBILITY TO HAVE MORE than one.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:2. Who owns the life we have?

The person within the living body.

LOL And, WHO own 'the life' of 'the person' within the 'living body', EXACTLY?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:3. Who pays the price for our decision?

What does that mean? Loved ones will miss us, but certainly they could understand the decision.

Immanuel Can wrote:4. Where do we go when we die?

Irrelevant.

WHY are things usually ONLY so-called 'irrelevant' WHEN one has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA NOR CLUE as to 'what' it IS, EXACTLY, which is being DISCUSSED?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:Absent answers to these questions, would we be making an informed decision about the end of life?

They all appear rather irrelevant where the circumstances of the one with the affliction is concerned.

If one is going to so-call 'die' a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade FROM 'the present', then what IS the ACTUAL DIFFERENCE.

For so-called "christians", supposedly, an EARLIER DEATH would be, literally, an IDEAL OUTCOME.

But, OF COURSE, there IS an INNER-KNOWING, which HOLDS the ACTUAL, and IRREFUTABLE, Truth OF 'things'. Which WILL ALWAYS OVER RIDE one's OWN PRESUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, which they HAVE OBTAINED and ATTAINED, ALONG 'the way'.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:57 am

Folks who have surrendered to drowning and then been revived to tell the tale have reported feelings of euphoria at the end. Dostojevski reported feelings of euphoria caused by a seizure. However, inferring a euphoric experience based on witnessing either a drowning or an epileptic seizure might be difficult in the moment.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm It does sound awful.

But maybe there are more questions.

1. We have one life...what does it mean to give up any moment of it?

By "one life" are you suggesting one lifetime? You can't possibly know that.

I think we can. Science tells us the system we're living in is entropic, so it's not going to last forever.

'This one' JUST BELIEVES whatever it CHOOSES TO, based upon NOTHING OTHER than its PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.

'Science' does NOT TELL you human beings that 'the system/Universe' that you are living IN is 'entropic' AT ALL.

Some of you human beings have just CHOSEN TO BELIEVE that 'this' IS TRUE, ONLY.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am And we do not see any unambiguous evidence of people having more than one life, so we have no reason at all to suppose it. But additionally, we have Biblical revelation, which clearly states, "It is appointed to men once to die, and then the Judgment."

ONCE MORE FOR the SLOW OF LEARNING, LETTING GO OF and GETTING RID OF previous PAST BELIEFS and VIEWS, 'one' 'DIES', and can be what is KNOWN AS 'born AGAIN'.

'These posters', here, REALLY DID NEED TO LET GO OF their BELIEFS and PRESUMPTIONS, so that they COULD, AGAIN, READ, and SEE, CLEARLY, ONCE AGAIN.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am

Immanuel Can wrote:2. Who owns the life we have?

The person within the living body.

Why? We neither created ourselves, nor can we determine our lifespan, nor can we even guarantee most of its conditions. What secures to you that you own anything?

Immanuel Can wrote:3. Who pays the price for our decision?

What does that mean? Loved ones will miss us, but certainly they could understand the decision.

Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing for sure: you won't be the only one affected by your decision.

you were ASKED, 'What does that mean?' "immanuel can". WHY, AGAIN, you did NOT ANSWER, and CLARIFY?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am

Immanuel Can wrote:4. Where do we go when we die?

Irrelevant.

Most relevant. If you're suffering, do you really want to go somewhere worse than the pain you're currently in?

LOL
LOL
LOL

'This one' ACTUALLY BELIEVES that you human beings have MORE than just 'ONE life', ALONE.

Which, OBVIOUSLY, CONTRADICTS what it was 'TRYING TO' get AT, above, here.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:45 am Those against assisted suicide like to imply that death can be avoided, when everyone who thinks about it for a moment knows it is inevitable.

But, 'death' in 'the way' you people envision or imagine it is NOT inevitable, AT ALL.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:45 am Thus the issue isn't life vs death, rather it's death at time #1 vs at time #2. Doesn't seem like the OP's friend didn't change the time much. Everyone else (including the government) should just butt out.

What happens if 'the partner' was 'convincing' 'that one' 'to go' earlier, so that they could 'get' some thing earlier?

Should ANY one or A government so-call 'butt in', 'then'?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:45 am

By "one life" are you suggesting one lifetime? You can't possibly know that.

I think we can. Science tells us the system we're living in is entropic, so it's not going to last forever. And we do not see any unambiguous evidence of people having more than one life, so we have no reason at all to suppose it.

..so there is no life for you in heaven?

And was Jesus wrong in stating that those that believe in him will never see death?

Immanuel Can wrote:But additionally, we have Biblical revelation, which clearly states, "It is appointed to men once to die, and then the Judgment."

Yep, and as GOD/sage informed me in 2005, that once we die, we are judged as to what family we deserve to be reborn into, based on how we have lived our life.

LOL

1. What you "yourself" IMAGINE is NOT what God, Itself, is INFORMING you of, NOR about.

2. If you people have ULTIMATE 'free choice' in HOW you behave or misbehave, then it would NOT matter ONE IOTA what 'family' you are so-claimed 'reborn into'.

3. LOL If God CHOOSES in WHAT 'family' EVERY one is so-called 'reborn' INTO, then 'this' would ONLY BE BECAUSE of HOW 'the family' is GOING TO 'raise' you, which would then, OBVIOUSLY, affect HOW EACH one ends up 'living their life'. Which would then, OBVIOUSLY, DEFEAT ANY sense of 'what family each one deserves'.

AGAIN, "attofishpi" your OWN IMAGININGS ARE NOT God, Itself, talking TO you.

Oh, and by the way, if you REALLY would like to KNOW HOW and WHEN God is ACTUALLY SPEAKING, and GUIDING, you, then just let me know and 'I' WILL, literally, INFORM 'you'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am
Thus, this is ongoing until people wise up, and never see death. (*become sages or other)

Human beings OBVIOUSLY come into Existence, and into 'being', but 'you', the one known, here, as "attofishpi", itself, has NEVER EVER LIVED BEFORE.

And for IRREFUTABLE PROOF OF 'this', AS WELL, then JUST ASK, and you SHALL RECEIVE.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am

Immanuel Can wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
The person within the living body.

Why? We neither created ourselves, nor can we determine our lifespan, nor can we even guarantee most of its conditions. What secures to you that you own anything?

GOD created me, I own my body, once it's dead GOD can deal with my soul...no issue.

LOL
LOL
LOL

'These people, literally, could NOT SEE the DISTORTIONS, INCONSISTENCIES, and CONTRADICTIONS in their OWN SAYINGS, and WRITINGS. And, this was even just within TINY LITTLE sentences like 'this one', here.

God created 'me', but 'me' owns, LOL, 'my body', but once 'my body' stops breathing and stops pumping blood, then what 'me' SAYS and WRITES is 'my soul', then God can, supposedly, deal with 'that thing'.

1. Does God NOT so-call 'deal' WITH EVERY thing?

2. HOW 'you', the 'person' known, here, as "attofishpi" IS CREATED, is COMPLETELY BACKWARDS FROM how you are PORTRAYING and IMAGINING, here.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am

Immanuel Can wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
Irrelevant.

Most relevant. If you're suffering, do you really want to go somewhere worse than the pain you're currently in?

Your belief that GOD could be so EVIL as to burn someone in hell forever simply for switching a failed body off (* cockup in GOD's design) is a deep lack of faith on your part..not sure Y u like to use the emoji for such nonsense.

BECAUSE it is the ONLY WAY this one KNOWS HOW to 'TRY' and FOOL and DECEIVE others, here.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:04 pm

Alexiev wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:32 am

It’s already a societal virtue to defend one’s country to the death.

LOL

It is NOT a 'societal virtue' to defend a country or a parcel of land, in which one was raised in and/or lives on, to the so-called 'death', AT ALL.

What has happened and occurred, and, still, happens and occurs, however, is that some people get FOOLED and DECEIVED to 'TRY TO' FIGHT and DEFEND a country, or parcel of land, UNTIL 'you' 'DIE', from PERCEIVED 'others', who the so-called "leaders" do NOT WANT.

See, ONLY "followers" FIGHT and DIE, FOR things, that "leaders" WANT, or do NOT WANT.

LOL "leaders" will NEVER FIGHT, nor DIE, FOR what they want or do not want. 'They' just FOOL and DECEIVE 'the followers' TO DO SO, INSTEAD.

LOL The so-called 'societal virtue', here, is some thing that "leaders" would NEVER EVER DO, "themselves".

LOL WHY would they HAVE TO. 'They' HAVE FOOLED and DECEIVED 'others' to DO 'it' FOR 'them'.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:04 pm On behalf of society, individuals already say to soldiers who take the risk, “Thank you for your service.”

While other SAY and APOLOGIZE FOR being SO EASILY and SO SIMPLY TRICKED and FOOLED.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:04 pm With effective messaging, when state assisted suicide becomes state approved suicide, the acknowledgment of societal virtue could become, “Thank you for your suicide,” thus changing insult into compliment.

It could also become a, so-called, 'societal virtue' to DIE earlier, and even ENCOURAGED, so that 'the younger ones' do NOT HAVE TO 'pay' to just KEEP 'the older ones' AROUND.

After all you human beings can be TRICKED, FOOLED, and DECEIVED INTO BELIEVING JUST ABOUT ANY and EVERY thing. One only has to have A QUICK GLANCE WITHIN 'this forum' to CLEARLY SEE, and NOTICE, 'this Fact'. LOL you people, here, have even STARTED QUESTIONING each other about WHY you would NOT BELIEVE some 'thing' when there is already, LAUGHINGLY so-called, 'evidence' for it?

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm It does sound awful.

But maybe there are more questions.

1. We have one life...what does it mean to give up any moment of it?

A: It would mean a presumption that awareness ends because animating life leaves the body, whereas the possibility exists that awareness transfers to a form that is currently undetectable due to sensory limitations. The transfer to another form would necessarily be outside of time.

Two PRESUMPTIONS BASED ON ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:52 pm Because life is all we can ever know, then life is all we ever knew, or ever will know, which means for humans life is all there is.

The POWER OF 'BELIEF' SHINES BRIGHTLY, ONCE MORE.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:52 pm This places life outside of time because “nothingness,” defies the identity-dependent imagination that considers nothingness.

OBVIOUSLY NOT YET OPEN.

Which is just the RESULT OF the POWER OF BELIEF, itself.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:52 pm This reveals non-existence to be merely a paradoxical, intellectual conjecture that requires life while attempting to presume the absence of life.

Talk ABOUT, ONCE AGAIN, 'TRYING TO' FIND words, and 'TRYING TO' PLACE them in some sort of order, which will HOPEFULLY back up and support ones ALREADY OBTAINED and STRONGLY HELD BELIEF.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:26 pm

Alexiev wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 4:23 am One famously kindly Catholic priest.(I forget the name) was asked if he believed in hell. "I believe in it, because that is the dogma of yhe church, but I don't think anyone is in it."

Did he ever find out if he was right?

you SPEAK, and ASK, as though you, laughingly, ALREADY KNOW the Truth.

you are OBVIOUSLY CERTAINLY NOT YET READY FOR the Truth, here, "immanuel can".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:30 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 3:10 am
I think we can. Science tells us the system we're living in is entropic, so it's not going to last forever. And we do not see any unambiguous evidence of people having more than one life, so we have no reason at all to suppose it.

..so there is no life for you in heaven?

And was Jesus wrong in stating that those that believe in him will never see death?

It's talking about one earthly life, of course. If there were no afterlife, neither could there be the Judgment.

AGAIN, 'this one' PROVES, IRREFUTABLY, that it does NOT EVEN KNOW what it is talking ABOUT, let alone being ABLE TO back up and support what it is SAYING, here.

And, I could PROVE 'this' IRREFUTABLY, VERY SIMPLY and VERY EASILY.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:30 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: Why? We neither created ourselves, nor can we determine our lifespan, nor can we even guarantee most of its conditions. What secures to you that you own anything?

GOD created me, I own my body, once it's dead GOD can deal with my soul...no issue.

Why would one assume the second clause was true? What gives one such "ownership"?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:33 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 10, 2025 5:46 pm It does sound awful.

But maybe there are more questions.

1. We have one life...what does it mean to give up any moment of it?

A: It would mean a presumption that awareness ends because animating life leaves the body, whereas the possibility exists that awareness transfers to a form that is currently undetectable due to sensory limitations. The transfer to another form would necessarily be outside of time.

Okay, but that's not quite what I'm trying to ask. I'm trying to ask what is the basis for giving up even a second of the one life that one has on this earth: is what is being given up something worthless, or something of inestimable value?

How do we rightly estimate the actual value of a single moment of life?

BY what IS PROMISED, OBVIOUSLY.

And, OBVIOUSLY, thee is NOTHING in 'this life', which COULD COMPARE to the INTERPRETATION of 'the life' IN 'heaven', which comes to ONLY 'those', like "immanuel can" WITH BELIEFS IN 'things'.

So, OBVIOUSLY, the ACTUAL 'value' of A 'single moment of life', in 'this life' is ABSOLUTELY OF NO 'value' AT ALL, in COMPARISON.

And, LOL, "immanuel can" could NOT do ANY thing OTHER THAN AGREE WITH 'this' WHOLEHEARTEDLY and ABSOLUTELY.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:30 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:09 am

..so there is no life for you in heaven?

And was Jesus wrong in stating that those that believe in him will never see death?

It's talking about one earthly life, of course.

The KEY problem you and all fund_a_mental_lists have, is that Christ was rarely impressed with the faith and level of discernment of those around him, thus, the stuff they decided to place within "holy" scripture is likely to be rather inaccurate.

But, the words, the scriptures, and what you 'see' 'placed within', is ALWAYS ACCURATE, right?

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:If there were no afterlife, neither could there be the Judgment.

Of course there can. GOD has been judging me for quite some time and indeed, reacting in some rather negative ways on the choices I've made since introducing itself to me since 1997.

'This one' speaks of "itself", continually, in relation to God, Itself, as though 'it' has been, or is, some sort of 'CHOSEN one'.

AGAIN, "attofishpi" what you IMAGINE, here, is NOT what COMES FROM God.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:52 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 7:30 pm
It's talking about one earthly life, of course.

The KEY problem you and all fund_a_mental_lists have, is that Christ was rarely impressed with the faith and level of discernment of those around him, thus, the stuff they decided to place within "holy" scripture is likely to be rather inaccurate.

And yet, Christ Himself insisted "... truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!" For Him, of course, "the Law" referred to the entire Tanakh. So Christ didn't seem to share your skepticism.

LOL "immanuel can" SPEAKS as though "jesus christ" shares its views. A LOT OF the 'time' your views go COMPLETELY AGAINST God's AND "jesus christs".

LOL Some times you could NOT be IN MORE OPPOSITION.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:If there were no afterlife, neither could there be the Judgment.

Of course there can. GOD has been judging me for quite some time and indeed, reacting in some rather negative ways on the choices I've made since introducing itself to me since 1997.

To quote an old saying, "We ain't seen nothin' yet."

Still have NOT SEEN HOW God, Itself, could HAVE A penis and a set of gonads, neither. BUT, that does NOT STOP you FROM BELIEVING and CALLING 'God, Itself' A "he".