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Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:24 pm
by promethean75
"But let me ask you this, instead: if we, to whom you are arguing, have no free will, no volition, then how do you expect us to change our minds?"
That's Biggs's favorite spade, too. The only way to resolve this dilemma is to speak rather cryptically and say sumthin like 'the system may be determined to change part of its mind, or it may not'. When a freewillist and a determinist come into collision, the determinist becomes a contradicting omnipotent logical force that, through argument, may compel the freewillist to have a change of mind. All the while claiming that it's determined for the freewillist to believe in freewill (hence the determinists contradiction).
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:50 pm
by Atla
promethean75 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:24 pm
"But let me ask you this, instead: if we, to whom you are arguing, have no free will, no volition, then how do you expect us to change our minds?"
That's Biggs's favorite spade, too. The only way to resolve this dilemma is to speak rather cryptically and say sumthin like 'the system
may be determined to change part of its mind, or it may not'. When a freewillist and a determinist come into collision, the determinist becomes a contradicting omnipotent logical force that, through argument, may compel the freewillist to have a change of mind. All the while claiming that it's determined for the freewillist to believe in freewill (hence the determinists contradiction).
But there is absolutely nothing contradicting about that..
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:05 pm
by Janoah
Determinism is understood in different ways, but the predetermination of an infinite number of events is absurd.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pm
by Janoah
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:17 pm
I can't. But I'm not God.
I'm ready to believe it, but you still haven't answered my simple question, do you acknowledge the fact that you have no freedom from the law of gravity?
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
by henry quirk
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pmyou have no freedom from the law of gravity
Presenting...
3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif
...freedom from the law of gravity!
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:14 pm
by Harbal
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pmyou have no freedom from the law of gravity
Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!
Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:21 pm
by henry quirk
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pmyou have no freedom from the law of gravity
Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!
Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.
Goalpost moving, H.
This is J's assertion:
you have no freedom from the law of gravity
Demonstrably the Lil Buzzard gives anyone with a mind to have it: freedom from the law of gravity.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:12 pm
by Harbal
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:21 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!
Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.
Goalpost moving, H.
This is J's assertion:
you have no freedom from the law of gravity
Demonstrably the Lil Buzzard gives anyone with a mind to have it: freedom from the law of gravity.
I'm no physicist, henry, but where there is matter, there is gravity, as I understand it. But I'm just being a busy body, so I'll apologise for the interruption and leave you to it.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:12 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:19 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:49 pm
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:23 pm
***simultaneity being relative doesn't rule out determinism.***
The relativity of simultaneity rules out simultaneous infinity.
I don't know what that means, but whatever it means, it's still the case that relativity doesn't rule out determinism
FJ is right: all it does is change the "mechanism" that is supposed to produce the predetermined outcome. It doesn't make the outcome less predetermined. Instead of it being by
predictable natural forces, it merely becomes by
unpredictable forces or randomness. But it doesn't open up an explanation for human volition or freedom.
You might be confusing relativity with quantum mechanics. Relativity has nothing to do with randomness.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:14 pm
by Flannel Jesus
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:05 pm
Determinism is understood in different ways, but the predetermination of an infinite number of events is absurd.
As long as you understand that einstein, the literal inventor of relativity, was a determinist and found no conflict there with relativity.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:40 pm
by Janoah
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:14 pm
As long as you understand that einstein,
In general, a physicist does not mean a philosopher.
There are neglected cases when physicists believe that one Jew, whom they call God, walked on water with a group of other Jews, and this does not prevent physicists from receiving Nobel Prizes in Physics.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:05 pm
by Immanuel Can
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pm
...you still haven't answered my simple question
Nor you any of mine.
But your question had no relevance, anyway. Nobody was disputing the existence of natural laws. You'd have to ask it to somebody who was.
The issue is not their existence, but what we can predicate of them, and what we can conclude from their existence. And that part, you've got completely wrong.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:07 pm
by Immanuel Can
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:19 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:49 pm
I don't know what that means, but whatever it means, it's still the case that relativity doesn't rule out determinism
FJ is right: all it does is change the "mechanism" that is supposed to produce the predetermined outcome. It doesn't make the outcome less predetermined. Instead of it being by
predictable natural forces, it merely becomes by
unpredictable forces or randomness. But it doesn't open up an explanation for human volition or freedom.
You might be confusing relativity with quantum mechanics. Relativity has nothing to do with randomness.
No, I meant to treat them as different issues, not as one. But what unifies them in the present discussion is that both are sometimes referred to by people as if they were some sort of ways of explaining the existence of volition. I meant to point out that neither of them is.
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:08 pm
by Immanuel Can
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
Janoah wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pmyou have no freedom from the law of gravity
Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!
Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.
But what have physical laws got to do with free will?
Re: Free will, freedom from what?
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:05 am
by Harbal
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:08 pm
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:14 pm
henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:32 pm
Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!
Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.
But what have physical laws got to do with free will?
I have no idea. I was making a point about gravity, not free will.