Philosophy Now Forum

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:03 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:03 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:52 pm

No.
Incest has the potential for recessive unfit mutations to express themselves phenotypically.
I cannot play any role in propogating unfit genes. But the opposite. By allowing these genes to express themselves it lowers the chance of those genes propogating to the degree which it impedes the reproduction of viable progeny.

The "unfit" genes have to be present in the genome in the first place.

One famous example of this is the recessive disease heamophilia, which would pop up amongst the Royal families of Europe. who had for centuries been marrying close relatives. The problem never expressed itself until two parents with the recessive gene produce offspiring who got both genes at a rate of 25%.
The offsping and the other 75% of siblings were perfectly healthy.

I agree with Lorikeet's
Incest increases the reproduction of unfit mutations, but it also propagates the same genes making them more vulnerable to shifting environmental circumstances.

How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

Lorikeet wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:00 pm

Kant expresses the principle of humanity (PH) as follows:
“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means, but always at the same time as an end” (Gr. 429).
It is a principle, Kant holds, that would describe the conduct of fully rational beings toward themselves and each other, so it is a principle that should describe the conduct of human (i.e., finite rational) beings toward themselves and each other.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 9-4345-2_6

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:23 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:03 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:03 am
I agree with Lorikeet's
Incest increases the reproduction of unfit mutations, but it also propagates the same genes making them more vulnerable to shifting environmental circumstances.

How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 12:14 pm Steely Dan
Cousin Dupree
https://youtu.be/80b4Y_d8W8o

"Now I've come back home to plan my next move from the comfort of my Aunt Faye's couch. When I see my little cousin Janine walk in
Well, all I could say was, "Ouch"

Honey, how you've grown
Like a rose
Well we used to play
When we were three
How about a kiss for your cousin Dupree"

Comments: "i love how creepy lyrics is the hallmark of steely dan"

Study question: should dupree engage in incestuous acts with his cousin janine if she obliges?

promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 9:55 pm "Ignoring the licks and solos would be a huge mistake."

And neither Fagen or Becker are instrument virtuosos. Neither one of em can shred but they're unmatched in the studio when it comes to writing and producing songs. The music is so well thought out, arranged and polished that even the bad songs are well written.

I hear the secret sauce that makes SD so good is the mu chord.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 10:53 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:23 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:03 pm
How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

At last.
Thanks for that.
It's also interesting that incest can bring useful traits forward by the same means; those hidden by recessiveness.
Selective breeding has been used by humans not only amongst themselves but also with their domesticated species since the very moment we began to corral animals we have chosen those most pleasing.
Interbreeding goes hand in hand with domestic selection and selective breeeding.
In the Andes it is a traditional practice to kill and eat Llamas that have a tendancy to stray. The result is that the tendacy to tolerate people and stay in the herd is reinforced.
In humans the selection of characteristics has led to hairless, women with hugh and unfeasible breasts. It should be noted that most of the excess flesh is just fat. Small breasts are at least as efficient at milk production as large ones. But like the host bird that favours the cuckoo egg over its own; size matter to the eye.
It's reasonable to assume that white skin is also a result of selective breeding. FOr thousands of years a woman with pale skin is a sign of wealth since individuals with white skin are those that do not have to work the field or hunt, but stay at home. By the time the indo-Europeans reach europe this selection process is a standard as you can read in the Greek writers of the 1st millienium bce. This parallels the VitaminD factor advantage, which is incidentally quite small.
There are thousands of such examples of domestic selection, but none so stark as the breeds of dog. THis is where close breeding or inbreeding has been praciced for thousands of years repeatedly. Sadly what has been missing is the grace of natural selection. As long as the bitch reaches breeding age to have progeny the existing problems are never removed from the genome.
But what is key here is that the unfavorable genes are part of natural variation (which is no guided), and have to be present recessively to be exposed as problems by incest.
So the incest is not morally dubious objectively. Incest can expose preexisting potential genetic problems but mostly it has been consciously used to enhance and preserve desirable ones. You might not that the Hapsburgs whilst keeping their power "in the family" also inheritied a large distinctive jaw. Such a mutation (if you can all it that) migh be an inconvenience but also led to the family having a bodily sigil of distinction, worn proudly by the family a sign of wealth and power.
Victoria spawned heamophiliacs true, but not caused by inbreeding, bu revealed by inbreeding

After 20,000 years of selective breeding many dog breeds have problems. Yet there is no one breed that have not alos had an extended life span due to domestic care. The wolf from which all domesticated dogs derive.
IN the wild a wolf will suffer from a very steep age pyramid. Most could only expect 5 years, though claims put it to 12. Domestic dogs despite generations of inbreeding, crossbreeding, and selective breeding for the most absurd characteristic see 12 years as more of a minimum.
So despite hip dysplasia, breathing problems, and so on. Dogs are doong fine.

Now the reason I say all this is that I resist the tempation to imply an ought from an is. And remember findly the Mill owners children who as siblings gave birth to a healthy child. When you turn against them on the grounds of "moral objectivity" you are on a crusade against ordinary honest people who for whatever reason made love and brought up a child. In your world that child would be (and is) anathematised and traduced as a freak of nature. Yet on the fields behind their mill a thousand sheep - all the result of incest, close bredding and selective breeding happily munch away, because they are unaware of the Christian morality tha is the scourge of all humanity.

Laws regarding incest (i.e. sexual activity between family members or close relatives) vary considerably between jurisdictions, and depend on the type of sexual activity and the nature of the family relationship of the parties involved, as well as the age and sex of the parties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_incest

Besides legal prohibitions, at least some forms of incest are also socially taboo or frowned upon in most cultures around the world.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2024 4:38 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 10:53 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:23 am
I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

At last.
Thanks for that.
It's also interesting that incest can bring useful traits forward by the same means; those hidden by recessiveness.
Selective breeding has been used by humans not only amongst themselves but also with their domesticated species since the very moment we began to corral animals we have chosen those most pleasing.
Interbreeding goes hand in hand with domestic selection and selective breeeding.
In the Andes it is a traditional practice to kill and eat Llamas that have a tendancy to stray. The result is that the tendacy to tolerate people and stay in the herd is reinforced.
In humans the selection of characteristics has led to hairless, women with hugh and unfeasible breasts. It should be noted that most of the excess flesh is just fat. Small breasts are at least as efficient at milk production as large ones. But like the host bird that favours the cuckoo egg over its own; size matter to the eye.
It's reasonable to assume that white skin is also a result of selective breeding. FOr thousands of years a woman with pale skin is a sign of wealth since individuals with white skin are those that do not have to work the field or hunt, but stay at home. By the time the indo-Europeans reach europe this selection process is a standard as you can read in the Greek writers of the 1st millienium bce. This parallels the VitaminD factor advantage, which is incidentally quite small.
There are thousands of such examples of domestic selection, but none so stark as the breeds of dog. THis is where close breeding or inbreeding has been praciced for thousands of years repeatedly. Sadly what has been missing is the grace of natural selection. As long as the bitch reaches breeding age to have progeny the existing problems are never removed from the genome.
But what is key here is that the unfavorable genes are part of natural variation (which is no guided), and have to be present recessively to be exposed as problems by incest.
So the incest is not morally dubious objectively. Incest can expose preexisting potential genetic problems but mostly it has been consciously used to enhance and preserve desirable ones. You might not that the Hapsburgs whilst keeping their power "in the family" also inheritied a large distinctive jaw. Such a mutation (if you can all it that) migh be an inconvenience but also led to the family having a bodily sigil of distinction, worn proudly by the family a sign of wealth and power.
Victoria spawned heamophiliacs true, but not caused by inbreeding, bu revealed by inbreeding

After 20,000 years of selective breeding many dog breeds have problems. Yet there is no one breed that have not alos had an extended life span due to domestic care. The wolf from which all domesticated dogs derive.
IN the wild a wolf will suffer from a very steep age pyramid. Most could only expect 5 years, though claims put it to 12. Domestic dogs despite generations of inbreeding, crossbreeding, and selective breeding for the most absurd characteristic see 12 years as more of a minimum.
So despite hip dysplasia, breathing problems, and so on. Dogs are doong fine.

Now the reason I say all this is that I resist the tempation to imply an ought from an is. And remember findly the Mill owners children who as siblings gave birth to a healthy child. When you turn against them on the grounds of "moral objectivity" you are on a crusade against ordinary honest people who for whatever reason made love and brought up a child. In your world that child would be (and is) anathematised and traduced as a freak of nature. Yet on the fields behind their mill a thousand sheep - all the result of incest, close bredding and selective breeding happily munch away, because they are unaware of the Christian morality tha is the scourge of all humanity.

Do you have reference to support humans in general has been using 'incest' as a tool for something positive or progress?

Currently there are laws on 'incest' all over the world with relation to varying kinship. From the legal perspective, there are oughts from is.



Before there were laws on incest, there were;



I understand there could be positives from inbreeding, but those are accidental and deviations from the incest 'ougthnot-ness'.

From the above, my point is there is objective inbreeding avoidance oughtnot_ness which is represented by its physical neural correlates. This is scientific and an objective science-evolutionary biological fact.
When this objective scientific fact is inputted into a moral framework and system it is a qualified moral fact.
On this basis morality is objective.

There is a difference between 'ought' [modal verb] and 'oughtness' [noun] which is a fact when justified within a Framework and System [FS], e.g. the oughtnon-ness of incest as a moral objective fact qualified to a moral FS.