Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:01 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:09 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:47 pm
To go back to my original point, it seems we are trying to use logic without having all the necessary information on which to base it. That's the way it seems to me, but what do I know?

I think I considered all feasible scenarios.

I imagine IC would make a very similar claim.

What is missing in your opinion?

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:03 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:01 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:09 pm
I think I considered all feasible scenarios.

I imagine IC would make a very similar claim.

What is missing in your opinion?

I don't know what is missing; I don't even if there is anything missing, and I don't know how you or anyone else can know. But maybe you do know, and maybe I'm just not very smart, which is also a possibility.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:50 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:53 am

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:06 pm
No. Humans just discovered the spacetime concept. It is fundamental whether human exists or not.

No, that is only a speculation and assumption which if reified is at best an illusion.

Spacetime and are particulars of reality.
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265

1. The FSRK based sense of reality
2. The human and mind-independent sense of reality.

In sense 2, humans do not discover any pre-existing spacetime, but spacetime is realized within a human-related FSRK then it is subsequently perceived, discovered, known and described within a FSK.

Reality: Emergence & Realization Prior to Perceiving, Knowing & Describing
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40145
What is Emergence & Realization
viewtopic.php?t=40721
VA: Knowledge & Descriptions CANNOT Produce Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39925 Apr 10, 2023
Perceiving, Knowing & Describing a Thing Not Related to Existence of the Thing
viewtopic.php?t=40715

Do you believe in evolution? There was a time when there was not a human being yet things existed!

Yes, I believe in evolution as qualified to a FSRK.

But evolution is a human-related theory from the science-biology FSRK.
There is no evolution if there is no Biology as a sub-system of scientific realization and knowledge.

Theoretically there was no humans before evolution and abiogenesis began, but the point is we cannot take away the human factor in the emergence of such a realization and theory.
If you take away the human factor, then you fall into a infinite regress.
You will be digging a deeper hole if you speculate all these are caused by an uncaused-cause, i.e. "Mind" with capital 'M' in your case.

The only way out is to manage your own self, i.e. know-thyself to avoid an infinite regress or an illusory uncaused-cause.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:03 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:01 pm
I imagine IC would make a very similar claim.

What is missing in your opinion?

I don't know what is missing; I don't even if there is anything missing, and I don't know how you or anyone else can know. But maybe you do know, and maybe I'm just not very smart, which is also a possibility.

Hmmm. I would elaborate if I knew what is the thing that you missing. So I don't know what to do and help with the situation.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:17 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:50 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:53 am
No, that is only a speculation and assumption which if reified is at best an illusion.

Spacetime and are particulars of reality.
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265

1. The FSRK based sense of reality
2. The human and mind-independent sense of reality.

In sense 2, humans do not discover any pre-existing spacetime, but spacetime is realized within a human-related FSRK then it is subsequently perceived, discovered, known and described within a FSK.

Reality: Emergence & Realization Prior to Perceiving, Knowing & Describing
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40145
What is Emergence & Realization
viewtopic.php?t=40721
VA: Knowledge & Descriptions CANNOT Produce Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39925 Apr 10, 2023
Perceiving, Knowing & Describing a Thing Not Related to Existence of the Thing
viewtopic.php?t=40715

Do you believe in evolution? There was a time when there was not a human being yet things existed!

Yes, I believe in evolution as qualified to a FSRK.

But evolution is a human-related theory from the science-biology FSRK.
There is no evolution if there is no Biology as a sub-system of scientific realization and knowledge.

Theoretically there was no humans before evolution and abiogenesis began, but the point is we cannot take away the human factor in the emergence of such a realization and theory.
If you take away the human factor, then you fall into a infinite regress.
You will be digging a deeper hole if you speculate all these are caused by an uncaused-cause, i.e. "Mind" with capital 'M' in your case.

The only way out is to manage your own self, i.e. know-thyself to avoid an infinite regress or an illusory uncaused-cause.

But evolution existed as a phenomenon whether there was a human or not. Could you deny that? I don't think that you fall into infinite regress if you take away the human factor.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:05 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:23 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:03 pm
What is missing in your opinion?

I don't know what is missing; I don't even if there is anything missing, and I don't know how you or anyone else can know. But maybe you do know, and maybe I'm just not very smart, which is also a possibility.

Hmmm. I would elaborate if I knew what is the thing that you missing. So I don't know what to do and help with the situation.

I'm not asking for anything, just voicing my thoughts.

[quote=bahman post_id=692712 time=1706207630 user_id=12593]
[quote=Advocate post_id=692694 time=1706200211 user_id=15238]
The universe never began. Space-time is just a way of describing change at a nonspecific level.
[/quote]
The universe definitely has a beginning. We should be in heat death if the universe is eternal!
[/quote]

It never began, it will never end. Only things Within the universe can be said to have a beginning or an end, and the exact change of state that is called a beginning of an end is always purpose dependent. Energy is never created or destroyed, and that includes matter which is high entropy, entangled energy.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:12 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:05 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:23 pm

I don't know what is missing; I don't even if there is anything missing, and I don't know how you or anyone else can know. But maybe you do know, and maybe I'm just not very smart, which is also a possibility.

Hmmm. I would elaborate if I knew what is the thing that you missing. So I don't know what to do and help with the situation.

I'm not asking for anything, just voicing my thoughts.

OK.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:17 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 11:50 am
Do you believe in evolution? There was a time when there was not a human being yet things existed!

Yes, I believe in evolution as qualified to a FSRK.

But evolution is a human-related theory from the science-biology FSRK.
There is no evolution if there is no Biology as a sub-system of scientific realization and knowledge.

Theoretically there was no humans before evolution and abiogenesis began, but the point is we cannot take away the human factor in the emergence of such a realization and theory.
If you take away the human factor, then you fall into a infinite regress.
You will be digging a deeper hole if you speculate all these are caused by an uncaused-cause, i.e. "Mind" with capital 'M' in your case.

The only way out is to manage your own self, i.e. know-thyself to avoid an infinite regress or an illusory uncaused-cause.

But evolution existed as a phenomenon whether there was a human or not. Could you deny that? I don't think that you fall into infinite regress if you take away the human factor.

You missed my point.

Within the common sense and conventional sense, yes, evolution began and existed as a phenomenon regardless of humans. I am not abandoning this, but there are more refined thinking beyond the common and conventional sense.

In the ultimate rigorous sense and a paradigmatic shift, evolution cannot exist without the human factor.

Science-Biology is sustained by human biological scientists.
The realization and knowledge of evolution is conditioned with science-Biology.
Therefore without human biological scientists, there is no realization of evolution.
Without a realization of evolution, there is no reality of evolution.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:13 am In the ultimate rigorous sense and a paradigmatic shift, X cannot exist without the human factor.
...
Without a realization of X, there is no reality of X.

Good luck with pushing your belief. People can always use a good laugh.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:13 am
Science-Biology is sustained by human biological scientists.
The realization and knowledge of evolution is conditioned with science-Biology.
Therefore without human biological scientists, there is no realization of evolution.
Without a realization of evolution, there is no reality of evolution.

Yet for the millions of years that we were completely unaware of it, it managed to plod along and slowly do its thing.

As usual I blame Kant. He said "Our experience is dependent on the human conditions, an expression I borrowed from VA." So far so good.

But then that weirdo also said "and we 100% can't know anything beyond that" where he should have said "we can't be sure whether or not we can know anything beyond that, and to what degree".

So because of that, some nutter could eventually come along and misuse Kant by saying that "not only can't we know anything beyond that, there can't even be anything beyond that, like evolution for example".

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:48 am

Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:30 pm The universe never began. Space-time is just a way of describing change at a nonspecific level.

The universe definitely has a beginning.

What proof do you have for this belief of yours here?

Or, do you just believe things to be even when you have absolutely no proof for them?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:48 am We should be in heat death if the universe is eternal!

Why 'should' 'we' be in some so-called 'heat death' 'now', exactly?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:13 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:17 am
Yes, I believe in evolution as qualified to a FSRK.

But evolution is a human-related theory from the science-biology FSRK.
There is no evolution if there is no Biology as a sub-system of scientific realization and knowledge.

Theoretically there was no humans before evolution and abiogenesis began, but the point is we cannot take away the human factor in the emergence of such a realization and theory.
If you take away the human factor, then you fall into a infinite regress.
You will be digging a deeper hole if you speculate all these are caused by an uncaused-cause, i.e. "Mind" with capital 'M' in your case.

The only way out is to manage your own self, i.e. know-thyself to avoid an infinite regress or an illusory uncaused-cause.

But evolution existed as a phenomenon whether there was a human or not. Could you deny that? I don't think that you fall into infinite regress if you take away the human factor.

You missed my point.

Within the common sense and conventional sense, yes, evolution began and existed as a phenomenon regardless of humans. I am not abandoning this, but there are more refined thinking beyond the common and conventional sense.

In the ultimate rigorous sense and a paradigmatic shift, evolution cannot exist without the human factor.

So, to "veritas aequitas", it believes, absolutely, that absolutely nothing existed before human beings magically materialized to exist.

Science-Biology is sustained by human biological scientists.
The realization and knowledge of evolution is conditioned with science-Biology.
Therefore without human biological scientists, there is no realization of evolution.
Without a realization of evolution, there is no reality of evolution.
[/quote]

Luckily then "human biological scientists" magically instantaneously materialized. Otherwise evolution, itself, could not have begun. And, if evolution, itself, did not begin, then all of the other "scientists" would not have evolved into 'being'. And, obviously, if all of the other different types of "scientists", in specific fields, had not evolved into 'being', then all of the realization and knowledge, in regards to their chosen fields, exactly, would not exist. Which means, well according to the one here known as "veritas aequitas" anyway, that without these specific fields of "scientists", then there would be no realization of those specific fields.

And, without a realization of those specific fields, then there is no 'reality', at all, of those specific fields.

Just out of curiosity is there another human being, besides "veritas aequitas", of course, who agrees with and accepts this?

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:13 am

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 3:09 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:17 am
Yes, I believe in evolution as qualified to a FSRK.

But evolution is a human-related theory from the science-biology FSRK.
There is no evolution if there is no Biology as a sub-system of scientific realization and knowledge.

Theoretically there was no humans before evolution and abiogenesis began, but the point is we cannot take away the human factor in the emergence of such a realization and theory.
If you take away the human factor, then you fall into a infinite regress.
You will be digging a deeper hole if you speculate all these are caused by an uncaused-cause, i.e. "Mind" with capital 'M' in your case.

The only way out is to manage your own self, i.e. know-thyself to avoid an infinite regress or an illusory uncaused-cause.

But evolution existed as a phenomenon whether there was a human or not. Could you deny that? I don't think that you fall into infinite regress if you take away the human factor.

You missed my point.

Within the common sense and conventional sense, yes, evolution began and existed as a phenomenon regardless of humans. I am not abandoning this, but there are more refined thinking beyond the common and conventional sense.

In the ultimate rigorous sense and a paradigmatic shift, evolution cannot exist without the human factor.

Science-Biology is sustained by human biological scientists.
The realization and knowledge of evolution is conditioned with science-Biology.
Therefore without human biological scientists, there is no realization of evolution.
Without a realization of evolution, there is no reality of evolution.

We know about the evolution of less than 100 years. Yes, evolution has been working in the human population as well regardless that we didn't know anything about it.