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Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:39 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:33 am Here's the really annoying quote..
Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9).
This idea does not even appear in the enitire section I,2.
Nothing of the kind can be found there.
It's like VA's source is just picking numbers at random.
All Hume is doing in this section is deciding the best way to divide the topic to explain the roles of ideas and impressions..

I quote
SECTION II.: Division of the subject.
Since it appears, that our simple impressions are prior to their correspondent ideas, and that the exceptions are very rare, method seems to require we should examine our impressions, before we consider our ideas. Impressions may be divided into two kinds, those of Sensation and those of Reflexion. The first kind arises in the soul originally, from unknown causes. The second is derived in a great measure from our ideas, and that in the following order. An impression first strikes upon the senses, and makes us perceive heat or cold, thirst or hunger, pleasure or pain of some kind or other. Of this impression there is a copy taken by the mind, which remains after the impression ceases; and this we call an idea. This idea of pleasure or pain, when it returns upon the soul, produces the new impressions of desire and aversion, hope and fear, which may properly be called impressions of reflexion, because derived from it. These again are copied by the memory and imagination, and become ideas; which perhaps in their turn give rise to other impressions and ideas. So that the impressions of reflexion are only antecedent to their correspondent ideas; but posterior to those of sensation, and deriv’d from them. The examination of our sensations belongs more to anatomists and natural philosophers than to moral; and therefore shall not at present be enter’d upon. And as the impressions of reflexion, viz. passions, desires, and emotions, which principally deserve our attention, arise mostly from ideas, ’twill be necessary to reverse that method, which at first sight seems most natural; and in order to explain the nature and principles of the human mind, give a particular account of ideas, before we proceed to impressions. For this reason I have here chosen to begin with ideas.
At no point does Hume question or assert validity.
https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Note the article is from IEP
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (IEP) (ISSN 2161-0002) was founded in 1995 to provide open access to detailed, scholarly, peer-reviewed information on key topics and philosophers in all areas of philosophy.

The author of the article:
James Fieser
Email: jfieser@utm.edu
University of Tennessee at Martin
U. S. A.

You think you are smarter than the author from the IEP article?
You should write to them to complain.

Here is 1.2.6.9 from Hume's Treatise.
Hume T 1.2.6.9 wrote:The idea of existence, then, is the very same with the idea of what we conceive to be existent.
To reflect on any thing simply, and to reflect on it as existent, are nothing different from each other.
That idea, when conjoined with the idea of any object, makes no addition to it.
Whatever we conceive, we conceive to be existent.
Any idea we please to form is the idea of a being; and the idea of a being is any idea we please to form.

Whoever opposes this, must necessarily point out that distinct impression, from which the idea of entity is derived, and must prove, that this impression is inseparable from every perception we believe to be existent.
This we may without hesitation conclude to be impossible.
Note also Atla's reference;
viewtopic.php?p=667736#p667736

If you read the above 1.2.6.9 in the context of the whole Section VI and the whole Treatise, it support the point that to Hume, an absolutely mind-independent External World is a fabrication.

You should not hastily shoot from the hips.
What you arrogantly quoted above [wrongly] is from Book 1.1.6 not Book 1.2.6
VOLUME I
INTRODUCTION BY THE AUTHOR.
BOOK I OF THE UNDERSTANDING
PART I OF IDEAS, THEIR ORIGIN, COMPOSITION, CONNEXION,
ABSTRACTION, ETC.
SECT. I OF THE ORIGIN OF OUR IDEAS.
SECT. II. DIVISION OF THE SUBJECT.
SECT. III. OF THE IDEAS OF THE MEMORY AND IMAGINATION.
SECT. IV. OF THE CONNECTION OR ASSOCIATION OF IDEAS.
SECT. V. OF RELATIONS.
SECT. VI. OF MODES AND SUBSTANCES
SECT. VII. OF ABSTRACT IDEAS.

PART II. OF THE IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME,

SECT. I. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF OUR IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. II. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. III. OF THE OTHER QUALITIES OF OUR IDEA OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. IV. OBJECTIONS ANSWERED.
SECT. V. THE SAME SUBJECT CONTINUED.
SECT. VI. OF THE IDEA OF EXISTENCE, AND OF EXTERNAL EXISTENCE

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:02 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Atla wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:39 am
Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9).
It's in Book 1 Part 2 Chapter 6
Hume wrote:Now since nothing is ever present to the mind but perceptions, and since all ideas are derived from something antecedently present to the mind ; it follows, that it is impossible for us so much as to conceive or form an idea of anything specifically different from ideas and impressions. Let us fix our attention out of ourselves as much as possible; let us chase our imagination to the heavens, or to the utmost limits of the universe; we never really advance a step beyond ourselves, nor can conceive any kind of existence, but those perceptions, which have appeared in that narrow compass. This is the universe of the imagination, nor have we any idea but what is there produced.

The furthest we can go towards a conception of external objects, when supposed specifically different from our perceptions, is to form a relative idea of them, without pretending to comprehend the related objects. Generally speaking, we do not suppose them specifically different; but only attribute to them different relations, connections, and durations. But of this more fully hereafter.
Keeping in mind that he was a pre-Kantian empiricist so he only relied on perceptions (which is incorrect), to me this looks like an OK early take on the inherent unknowability of the external world, if there is one (which unknowability is probably not entirely correct either).
"an OK early take"?
There is no 'take' [reality] of an inherent unknowability of the external world or an absolutely mind-independent external world.

According to Hume, then Kant, one is being deluded to insist there is an absolutely mind-independent external world.
This is why one need to understand critically one's own psychology on insisting on such a belief of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things.

That is why Kant persisted with Hume's point and insisted;
"Mind-Independent Things" is a Scandal [Insult] to Philosophy
viewtopic.php?t=40182
which philosophical realists like you are unable to prove it is real at all.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:51 am
by Atla
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:02 am "an OK early take"?
There is no 'take' [reality] of an inherent unknowability of the external world or an absolutely mind-independent external world.

According to Hume, then Kant, one is being deluded to insist there is an absolutely mind-independent external world.
This is why one need to understand critically one's own psychology on insisting on such a belief of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things.

That is why Kant persisted with Hume's point and insisted;
"Mind-Independent Things" is a Scandal [Insult] to Philosophy
viewtopic.php?t=40182
which philosophical realists like you are unable to prove it is real at all.
This is the part where you would need to have a minimal intelligence to understand my position, but you don't have that. Look:

The default philosophical stance is that if there is a mind-independent external world, that world is continuous with the mind, because they are two parts of one and the same world. And that is exactly the picture that science and indirect realism have arrived at as well. And because of this, it may be possible to have some kind of "residue" about the structure of the mind-external world after all. Let's say it's 1% knowable 99% unknowable.

You, and maybe Hume and Kant (I'm not entirely convinced), don't take the default stance, but take an unlikely position that absolutely nothing can be known about the mind-external world, if there is one.

In the 18th century you could still get away with claiming that the mind-external world is 100% unknowable. Today no, you either adopt a philosophy similar to mine or you become a plant. Or you drop science. That's why I've shown that your philosophy doesn't work, you are relying on noumena left and right, you just pretend not to.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:50 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Atla wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:02 am "an OK early take"?
There is no 'take' [reality] of an inherent unknowability of the external world or an absolutely mind-independent external world.

According to Hume, then Kant, one is being deluded to insist there is an absolutely mind-independent external world.
This is why one need to understand critically one's own psychology on insisting on such a belief of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things.

That is why Kant persisted with Hume's point and insisted;
"Mind-Independent Things" is a Scandal [Insult] to Philosophy
viewtopic.php?t=40182
which philosophical realists like you are unable to prove it is real at all.
This is the part where you would need to have a minimal intelligence to understand my position, but you don't have that. Look:

The default philosophical stance is that if there is a mind-independent external world, that world is continuous with the mind, because they are two parts of one and the same world. And that is exactly the picture that science and indirect realism have arrived at as well. And because of this, it may be possible to have some kind of "residue" about the structure of the mind-external world after all. Let's say it's 1% knowable 99% unknowable.

You, and maybe Hume and Kant (I'm not entirely convinced), don't take the default stance, but take an unlikely position that absolutely nothing can be known about the mind-external world, if there is one.

In the 18th century you could still get away with claiming that the mind-external world is 100% unknowable. Today no, you either adopt a philosophy similar to mine or you become a plant. Or you drop science. That's why I've shown that your philosophy doesn't work, you are relying on noumena left and right, you just pretend not to.
Are you up to date with Modern Science??
I have quoted this more than a '1000' times.
Model-dependent realism is a view of scientific inquiry that focuses on the role of scientific models of phenomena.[1] It claims reality should be interpreted based upon these models, and where several models overlap in describing a particular subject, multiple, equally valid, realities exist.
It claims that it is meaningless to talk about the "true reality" of a model as we can never be absolutely certain of anything.
The only meaningful thing is the usefulness of the model.
The above supports Hume, Kant and the modern ANTI-philosophical_realists, and your insistence on your absolute mind-independent position even if 1% is delusional.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:02 am
by Atla
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:50 am Are you up to date with Modern Science??
I have quoted this more than a '1000' times.
Model-dependent realism is a view of scientific inquiry that focuses on the role of scientific models of phenomena.[1] It claims reality should be interpreted based upon these models, and where several models overlap in describing a particular subject, multiple, equally valid, realities exist.
It claims that it is meaningless to talk about the "true reality" of a model as we can never be absolutely certain of anything.
The only meaningful thing is the usefulness of the model.
The above supports Hume, Kant and the modern ANTI-philosophical_realists, and your insistence on your absolute mind-independent position even if 1% is delusional.
Your incompetent gnat attempt fails in so many ways.

When choosing between models, I just explained to you that your 100% model is untenable compared to the, say 1%-99% model.

When we look at what models ARE, well they are models, not ontologies. The 1%-99% model is a model not ontology, so why would your 100% model be ontology?

When it comes to absolute certainty, we can't be absolutely certain about what's outside the mind, and we also can't be certain about what's inside the mind, or if there is even a mind at all. Absolute certainty was never a requirement for anything.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:04 am
by Iwannaplato
Atla wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:51 am That's why I've shown that your philosophy doesn't work, you are relying on noumena left and right, you just pretend not to.
I think this is the key impasse and it doesn't go away.
Another one that doesn't go away is that mind-dependent theory is conflated with mind-dependent everything else.
If you know something, then you know it via an FSK.
FSKs are mind-dependent.
So, whatever I know something about is also mind-dependent.


X is considered real by scientific FSK Y.
FSK Y was made up by humans.
Therefore X was made up by humans or dependent on human minds.


He doesn't argue the latter so openly, but has argued it implicitly again and again.

In his latest foray with me he argued that science is anti-realist because the theories in it are mind-dependent.

Which is a category error.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:19 am
by Atla
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:04 am Another one that doesn't go away is that mind-dependent theory is conflated with mind-dependent everything else.
If you know something, then you know it via an FSK.
FSKs are mind-dependent.
So, whatever I know something about is also mind-dependent.


X is considered real by scientific FSK Y.
FSK Y was made up by humans.
Therefore X was made up by humans or dependent on human minds.


He doesn't argue the latter so openly, but has argued it implicitly again and again.

In his latest foray with me he argued that science is anti-realist because the theories in it are mind-dependent.

Which is a category error.
Okay I will concede that here we run into a little deeper and less known issue, namely that every theory of "universal scope" is somehow necessarily circular, when viewed in its entirety. Because all human thinking is inherently relativistic and therefore circular, and probably the universe itself is inherently circular. (At least that's how I see it.)

It can take a lot of reflection to realize the above, most people have no idea about it.

People say that circular reasoning is bad, it is a fallacy, and that's very true. Except for the biggest reasonings of all: the theories of "universal scope", where it's the other way around, it has to be circular.

Obviously VA doesn't understand that the real question here is, which of the following circular reasonings is the best one? But I have the impression that Kant didn't understand this either, too bad. Or maybe he did understand it, but clang to some false illusion of certainty, too bad.

1. We can't have impressions about the mind-external world -> we appear to have such impressions -> they can't actually be mind-external in any way.

2. Maybe we can, maybe we can't have impressions about the mind-external world -> we appear to have such impressions -> maybe they are actually mind-external or universal to some extent, maybe they aren't.

3. We have impressions of the mind-external world all the time -> we appear to have such impressions -> they are actually mind-external.

VA takes 1. and argues against 2. and 3., but I see no reason to think that 2. isn't the best one. (Took a lot of work to beat it into VA's head that there even is a 2. possibility between 1. and 3.)

So I have mixed feelings about Kant. He synthesized from two idiotic views, pre-Kantian empiricism and rationalism, okay, that was needed. But his synthesis is probably off. The correct synthesis is probably different.
And people took him too seriously. He both propelled Western philosophy forward and also seems to have hindered it from going even further towards nondualism. Well whatever not my problem. :)

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:07 am
by Sculptor
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:39 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:33 am Here's the really annoying quote..
Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9).
This idea does not even appear in the enitire section I,2.
Nothing of the kind can be found there.
It's like VA's source is just picking numbers at random.
All Hume is doing in this section is deciding the best way to divide the topic to explain the roles of ideas and impressions..

I quote
SECTION II.: Division of the subject.
Since it appears, that our simple impressions are prior to their correspondent ideas, and that the exceptions are very rare, method seems to require we should examine our impressions, before we consider our ideas. Impressions may be divided into two kinds, those of Sensation and those of Reflexion. The first kind arises in the soul originally, from unknown causes. The second is derived in a great measure from our ideas, and that in the following order. An impression first strikes upon the senses, and makes us perceive heat or cold, thirst or hunger, pleasure or pain of some kind or other. Of this impression there is a copy taken by the mind, which remains after the impression ceases; and this we call an idea. This idea of pleasure or pain, when it returns upon the soul, produces the new impressions of desire and aversion, hope and fear, which may properly be called impressions of reflexion, because derived from it. These again are copied by the memory and imagination, and become ideas; which perhaps in their turn give rise to other impressions and ideas. So that the impressions of reflexion are only antecedent to their correspondent ideas; but posterior to those of sensation, and deriv’d from them. The examination of our sensations belongs more to anatomists and natural philosophers than to moral; and therefore shall not at present be enter’d upon. And as the impressions of reflexion, viz. passions, desires, and emotions, which principally deserve our attention, arise mostly from ideas, ’twill be necessary to reverse that method, which at first sight seems most natural; and in order to explain the nature and principles of the human mind, give a particular account of ideas, before we proceed to impressions. For this reason I have here chosen to begin with ideas.
At no point does Hume question or assert validity.
https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Note the article is from IEP
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (IEP) (ISSN 2161-0002) was founded in 1995 to provide open access to detailed, scholarly, peer-reviewed information on key topics and philosophers in all areas of philosophy.

The author of the article:
James Fieser
Email: jfieser@utm.edu
University of Tennessee at Martin
U. S. A.

You think you are smarter than the author from the IEP article?
You should write to them to complain.

Here is 1.2.6.9 from Hume's Treatise.
Hume T 1.2.6.9 wrote:The idea of existence, then, is the very same with the idea of what we conceive to be existent.
To reflect on any thing simply, and to reflect on it as existent, are nothing different from each other.
That idea, when conjoined with the idea of any object, makes no addition to it.
Whatever we conceive, we conceive to be existent.
Any idea we please to form is the idea of a being; and the idea of a being is any idea we please to form.

Whoever opposes this, must necessarily point out that distinct impression, from which the idea of entity is derived, and must prove, that this impression is inseparable from every perception we believe to be existent.
This we may without hesitation conclude to be impossible.
Note also Atla's reference;
viewtopic.php?p=667736#p667736

If you read the above 1.2.6.9 in the context of the whole Section VI and the whole Treatise, it support the point that to Hume, an absolutely mind-independent External World is a fabrication.

You should not hastily shoot from the hips.
What you arrogantly quoted above [wrongly] is from Book 1.1.6 not Book 1.2.6
VOLUME I
INTRODUCTION BY THE AUTHOR.
BOOK I OF THE UNDERSTANDING
PART I OF IDEAS, THEIR ORIGIN, COMPOSITION, CONNEXION,
ABSTRACTION, ETC.
SECT. I OF THE ORIGIN OF OUR IDEAS.
SECT. II. DIVISION OF THE SUBJECT.
SECT. III. OF THE IDEAS OF THE MEMORY AND IMAGINATION.
SECT. IV. OF THE CONNECTION OR ASSOCIATION OF IDEAS.
SECT. V. OF RELATIONS.
SECT. VI. OF MODES AND SUBSTANCES
SECT. VII. OF ABSTRACT IDEAS.

PART II. OF THE IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME,

SECT. I. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF OUR IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. II. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. III. OF THE OTHER QUALITIES OF OUR IDEA OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. IV. OBJECTIONS ANSWERED.
SECT. V. THE SAME SUBJECT CONTINUED.
SECT. VI. OF THE IDEA OF EXISTENCE, AND OF EXTERNAL EXISTENCE
Clearly I ahve shown that I am smarter than the article, since the guy can't even use quotes properly.
I suggest that ,rather than rely on someone else, try and do your own thinking.
Whilst you do that pleas look up

Fallacy:Ad Vericundium.

I suggest that the author of the text may well be a Realist with no sympathies with empiricism or idealism. Since he has chosen adjectives, not present in Hume, which reflect his own interpretation.

You have the things backwards..
It is not the independant world that is the fabrication, though Berkeley might has said so.
THe fabrication happens in the brain. We fabriciate the world of our understanding. We ihave an ideation of out sensoiry inputs and the real world for us can only be a concept, but exists to stimulate our sesnes with which we mentally fabriciate our worlds.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:42 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:07 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:39 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:33 am Here's the really annoying quote..


This idea does not even appear in the enitire section I,2.
Nothing of the kind can be found there.
It's like VA's source is just picking numbers at random.
All Hume is doing in this section is deciding the best way to divide the topic to explain the roles of ideas and impressions..

I quote



At no point does Hume question or assert validity.
https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Note the article is from IEP
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (IEP) (ISSN 2161-0002) was founded in 1995 to provide open access to detailed, scholarly, peer-reviewed information on key topics and philosophers in all areas of philosophy.

The author of the article:
James Fieser
Email: jfieser@utm.edu
University of Tennessee at Martin
U. S. A.

You think you are smarter than the author from the IEP article?
You should write to them to complain.

Here is 1.2.6.9 from Hume's Treatise.
Hume T 1.2.6.9 wrote:The idea of existence, then, is the very same with the idea of what we conceive to be existent.
To reflect on any thing simply, and to reflect on it as existent, are nothing different from each other.
That idea, when conjoined with the idea of any object, makes no addition to it.
Whatever we conceive, we conceive to be existent.
Any idea we please to form is the idea of a being; and the idea of a being is any idea we please to form.

Whoever opposes this, must necessarily point out that distinct impression, from which the idea of entity is derived, and must prove, that this impression is inseparable from every perception we believe to be existent.
This we may without hesitation conclude to be impossible.
Note also Atla's reference;
viewtopic.php?p=667736#p667736

If you read the above 1.2.6.9 in the context of the whole Section VI and the whole Treatise, it support the point that to Hume, an absolutely mind-independent External World is a fabrication.

You should not hastily shoot from the hips.
What you arrogantly quoted above [wrongly] is from Book 1.1.6 not Book 1.2.6
VOLUME I
INTRODUCTION BY THE AUTHOR.
BOOK I OF THE UNDERSTANDING
PART I OF IDEAS, THEIR ORIGIN, COMPOSITION, CONNEXION,
ABSTRACTION, ETC.
SECT. I OF THE ORIGIN OF OUR IDEAS.
SECT. II. DIVISION OF THE SUBJECT.
SECT. III. OF THE IDEAS OF THE MEMORY AND IMAGINATION.
SECT. IV. OF THE CONNECTION OR ASSOCIATION OF IDEAS.
SECT. V. OF RELATIONS.
SECT. VI. OF MODES AND SUBSTANCES
SECT. VII. OF ABSTRACT IDEAS.

PART II. OF THE IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME,

SECT. I. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF OUR IDEAS OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. II. OF THE INFINITE DIVISIBILITY OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. III. OF THE OTHER QUALITIES OF OUR IDEA OF SPACE AND TIME.
SECT. IV. OBJECTIONS ANSWERED.
SECT. V. THE SAME SUBJECT CONTINUED.
SECT. VI. OF THE IDEA OF EXISTENCE, AND OF EXTERNAL EXISTENCE
Clearly I ahve shown that I am smarter than the article, since the guy can't even use quotes properly.
I suggest that ,rather than rely on someone else, try and do your own thinking.
Whilst you do that pleas look up

Fallacy:Ad Vericundium.

I suggest that the author of the text may well be a Realist with no sympathies with empiricism or idealism. Since he has chosen adjectives, not present in Hume, which reflect his own interpretation.

You have the things backwards..
It is not the independant world that is the fabrication, though Berkeley might has said so.
THe fabrication happens in the brain. We fabriciate the world of our understanding. We ihave an ideation of out sensoiry inputs and the real world for us can only be a concept, but exists to stimulate our sesnes with which we mentally fabriciate our worlds.
What Hume is accusing you and philosophical realists of the like is,
your idea that "there is an independent world out there awaiting discovery" is a fabrication.
Your fabrication of an independent world happens in the brain, i.e. psychological.

This is similar to Hume refutation of the so-obvious 'cause and effect' [A cause B] as a psychological fabrication from constant conjunction, habit and custom.

What Hume claimed in his Treatise is, all we are 'certain' are our experiences [Hume being an Empiricist] and we do not have the omnipotent and omniscient power to be so certain there is an absolutely mind independent world out there.
This is why Hume is a skeptic with reference to an independent external world.

Hume was even skeptical of a real self [that survive physical death] and insisted whatever the self, it is merely a bundle of activities. The idea of a constant personal identity is an illusion. Hume demonstrated how humans are effected by illusions.

Hume started with Perceptions and Sensations, but Hume did not claim these perceptions and sensations are certainly from an absolutely mind-independent out there.
If you think otherwise, show me the references from the Treatise or Enquiry.

As with the limitation of his time, Hume did plea ignorance of how these perceptions and sensations came about, e.g. with sympathy.

However, from another modern perspective, humans do fabricate and construct their own reality, not with their brain, but reality emerged and is realized via the whole self and the reality is constructed iteratively and spirally [not circular].
See:
Reality: Emergence & Realization Prior to Perceiving, Knowing & Describing
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40145

I have raised various threads on this topic:
Kant: Laws of Nature, We Ourselves Introduce
Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISdBAf-ysI0 AL-Khalili
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31180
Humans are the Co-Creator of Reality They are In [2]
Humans are the Co-Creators of Reality They are In [3]

not all links provided, will provide if you are interested.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:23 am
by Iwannaplato
As I had claimed the philosophical realists' dogmatic and ideological claim of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things to the extent the moon pre-existed humans and will continue to exist even after humans are extinct, is grounded on an illusion.

Why philosophical realists cling to the idea of an absolutely mind independent reality is driven by an evolutionary default, thus based on a psychological impulse.

Here is Hume's view on the same issue;
Not that Hume does not weigh in on the evolutiony default. And I think it's safe to say that basing the denial of a part before humans existed is not supported well by a theory (the evolutionary theory) that assumes and concludes that there is a past existing planet/solar system pre-homosapiens
is something Hume would have seen was problematic, had he come in post-Darwinism.
Hume’s view on external objects is that the mind is programmed to form some concept of the external world, although this concept or idea is really just a fabrication. (1)

Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9). (2)
Nevertheless, he argues that we have an unavoidable “vulgar” or common belief in the continued existence of objects, and this idea he accounts for.

His explanation is lengthy, but involves the following features.
Perceptions of objects are disjointed and have no unity in and of themselves (Treatise, 1.4.2.29).
In an effort to organize our perceptions, we first naturally assume that there is no distinction between our perceptions and the objects that are perceived (this is the so-called “vulgar” view of perception).
We then conflate all ideas (of perceptions), which put our minds in similar dispositions (Treatise, 1.4.2.33); that is, we associate resembling ideas and attribute identity to their causes.
Consequently, we naturally invent the continued and external existence of the objects (or perceptions) that produced these ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.35).
Lastly, we go on to believe in the existence of these objects because of the force of the resemblance between ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.36).

Although this belief is philosophically unjustified, Hume feels he has given an accurate account of how we inevitably arrive at the idea of external existence. (3)
In contrast to the previous explanation of this idea, he recommends that we doubt a more sophisticated but erroneous notion of existence—the so-called philosophical view—which distinguishes between perceptions and the external objects that cause perceptions.

The psychological motivation for accepting this view is this: our imagination tells us that resembling perceptions have a continued existence, yet our reflection tells us that they are interrupted.
Appealing to both forces, we ascribe interruption to perceptions and continuance to objects (Treatise, 1.4.2.52).

https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Note that Hume is writing about things external to himself: all other people's minds and the contents of those minds. He has, according to his own ideas, fabricated ideas about things external to him. Fine, not a problem in itself, except that it's realism.
He has, presumably, examined his own mind/experiencing/perception and drawn conclusions about what is happening in everyone's mind. Other people are external to him, yet he presumes they exist. His own argument could lead to the conclusion that they only exist when he perceive them. He does not claim this. Further he claims to be able to ACCURATELY fabricate an idea that all people's minds are like X and all their thoughts and perceptiosn are like Y.

So, he, somehow, knows that their experiencing must be like his: mere fabrication and having nothing to do with external reality. And yet this knowledge is about what is part of external reality to him (other people and the internal processes of their minds)

If he is right about his own fabrication process and how there is no ongoing external reality we can know anything about, why does he grant himself the ability to know things about people who are external to him.

Obviously he makes the assumption: everyone's mind is like my mind. It's not an absurd assumption, but why should we grant him this assumption as a valid axiom when he is being so extremely parsimonious. Further it should apply to everything? Unless he thinks they are part of his mind or dependent on his mind for their existence.

There is an implicit dualist ontology: things (objects like rocks and chairs) and humans exist in very different ways. Somehow he knows this even though both things and humans are not part of him and thus any hypothesis about them would be fabrication, mere fabrication.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:49 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:23 am
As I had claimed the philosophical realists' dogmatic and ideological claim of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things to the extent the moon pre-existed humans and will continue to exist even after humans are extinct, is grounded on an illusion.

Why philosophical realists cling to the idea of an absolutely mind independent reality is driven by an evolutionary default, thus based on a psychological impulse.

Here is Hume's view on the same issue;
Not that Hume does not weigh in on the evolutiony default. And I think it's safe to say that basing the denial of a part before humans existed is not supported well by a theory (the evolutionary theory) that assumes and concludes that there is a past existing planet/solar system pre-homosapiens
is something Hume would have seen was problematic, had he come in post-Darwinism.
Hume’s view on external objects is that the mind is programmed to form some concept of the external world, although this concept or idea is really just a fabrication. (1)

Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9). (2)
Nevertheless, he argues that we have an unavoidable “vulgar” or common belief in the continued existence of objects, and this idea he accounts for.

His explanation is lengthy, but involves the following features.
Perceptions of objects are disjointed and have no unity in and of themselves (Treatise, 1.4.2.29).
In an effort to organize our perceptions, we first naturally assume that there is no distinction between our perceptions and the objects that are perceived (this is the so-called “vulgar” view of perception).
We then conflate all ideas (of perceptions), which put our minds in similar dispositions (Treatise, 1.4.2.33); that is, we associate resembling ideas and attribute identity to their causes.
Consequently, we naturally invent the continued and external existence of the objects (or perceptions) that produced these ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.35).
Lastly, we go on to believe in the existence of these objects because of the force of the resemblance between ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.36).

Although this belief is philosophically unjustified, Hume feels he has given an accurate account of how we inevitably arrive at the idea of external existence. (3)
In contrast to the previous explanation of this idea, he recommends that we doubt a more sophisticated but erroneous notion of existence—the so-called philosophical view—which distinguishes between perceptions and the external objects that cause perceptions.

The psychological motivation for accepting this view is this: our imagination tells us that resembling perceptions have a continued existence, yet our reflection tells us that they are interrupted.
Appealing to both forces, we ascribe interruption to perceptions and continuance to objects (Treatise, 1.4.2.52).

https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Note that Hume is writing about things external to himself: all other people's minds and the contents of those minds. He has, according to his own ideas, fabricated ideas about things external to him. Fine, not a problem in itself, except that it's realism.
He has, presumably, examined his own mind/experiencing/perception and drawn conclusions about what is happening in everyone's mind. Other people are external to him, yet he presumes they exist. His own argument could lead to the conclusion that they only exist when he perceive them. He does not claim this. Further he claims to be able to ACCURATELY fabricate an idea that all people's minds are like X and all their thoughts and perceptiosn are like Y.

So, he, somehow, knows that their experiencing must be like his: mere fabrication and having nothing to do with external reality. And yet this knowledge is about what is part of external reality to him (other people and the internal processes of their minds)

If he is right about his own fabrication process and how there is no ongoing external reality we can know anything about, why does he grant himself the ability to know things about people who are external to him.

Obviously he makes the assumption: everyone's mind is like my mind. It's not an absurd assumption, but why should we grant him this assumption as a valid axiom when he is being so extremely parsimonious. Further it should apply to everything? Unless he thinks they are part of his mind or dependent on his mind for their existence.

There is an implicit dualist ontology: things (objects like rocks and chairs) and humans exist in very different ways. Somehow he knows this even though both things and humans are not part of him and thus any hypothesis about them would be fabrication, mere fabrication.
I don't think you have read Hume's Treatise nor Enquiry, if yes, you have not understood Hume's view thoroughly.

Hume never denied 'external reality' just like he did not deny 'cause and effect' as human conceptions of the vulgar* sense. Hume never denied the sense of externalness as a human conception. *Hume used this term, i.e. refer to the layman's common-sense.

What Hume [as a hardcore Empiricist] denied and refuted is the philosophical realists' claim that reality and things exist as really real independent of the human mind which is purely reasoned without solid and sound proofs.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:43 am
by Iwannaplato
I'm ignoring you VA. In my estimation you generally don't respond directly to points made and so don't really engage with them.
I am sure you view our discussion differently from this, given what you have said many times.
But there it is. I can see no point in pretending that what is happening is an actual dialogue.
I think your threads are interesting and I think it's great that you bring up the topics and positions that you do.

So, I will engage with the topics in your threads, but I will not be responding to your posts to me or reading them anymore. Any dialogues I engage in in these threads will be with other people posting here.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:18 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:43 am I'm ignoring you VA. In my estimation you generally don't respond directly to points made and so don't really engage with them.
I am sure you view our discussion differently from this, given what you have said many times.
But there it is. I can see no point in pretending that what is happening is an actualy dialogue.
I think your threads are interesting and I think it's great that you bring up the topics and positions that you do.

So, I will engage with the topics in your threads, but I will not be responding to your posts to me or reading them anymore. Any dialogues I engage in in these threads will be with other people posting here.
You was already in my ignore list right from the start extending from ILP.
I only responded to you [still in my ignore list] subsequently because there is 'something' related to the OP for my own selfish interest.

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:48 am
by Sculptor
You lead lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him understand the implcations of Hume's philosophy

Re: Hume: External World is a Fabrication

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:59 pm
by Gary Childress
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 7:53 am As I had claimed the philosophical realists' dogmatic and ideological claim of an absolutely mind-independent reality and things to the extent the moon pre-existed humans and will continue to exist even after humans are extinct, is grounded on an illusion.

Why philosophical realists cling to the idea of an absolutely mind independent reality is driven by an evolutionary default, thus based on a psychological impulse.

Here is Hume's view on the same issue;
Hume’s view on external objects is that the mind is programmed to form some concept of the external world, although this concept or idea is really just a fabrication. (1)

Hume’s skeptical claim here is that we have no valid conception of the existence of external things (Treatise, 1.2.6.9). (2)
Nevertheless, he argues that we have an unavoidable “vulgar” or common belief in the continued existence of objects, and this idea he accounts for.

His explanation is lengthy, but involves the following features.
Perceptions of objects are disjointed and have no unity in and of themselves (Treatise, 1.4.2.29).
In an effort to organize our perceptions, we first naturally assume that there is no distinction between our perceptions and the objects that are perceived (this is the so-called “vulgar” view of perception).
We then conflate all ideas (of perceptions), which put our minds in similar dispositions (Treatise, 1.4.2.33); that is, we associate resembling ideas and attribute identity to their causes.
Consequently, we naturally invent the continued and external existence of the objects (or perceptions) that produced these ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.35).
Lastly, we go on to believe in the existence of these objects because of the force of the resemblance between ideas (Treatise, 1.4.2.36).

Although this belief is philosophically unjustified, Hume feels he has given an accurate account of how we inevitably arrive at the idea of external existence. (3)
In contrast to the previous explanation of this idea, he recommends that we doubt a more sophisticated but erroneous notion of existence—the so-called philosophical view—which distinguishes between perceptions and the external objects that cause perceptions.

The psychological motivation for accepting this view is this: our imagination tells us that resembling perceptions have a continued existence, yet our reflection tells us that they are interrupted.
Appealing to both forces, we ascribe interruption to perceptions and continuance to objects (Treatise, 1.4.2.52).

https://iep.utm.edu/hume/#SH3d
Views?
I got through the first few sentences and then almost fainted from mental fatigue.

I guess my only question is, does the world go on after I cease to exist or does it not? Personally, I see no reason to think that it doesn't. The world didn't end when Napoleon died. The world didn't end when Jesus [may or may not have] died. Personally, I wouldn't want it to end when I die. It's not like I want to take the world with me when I go and not leave it here for anyone else's kids. I have no children myself, but it'd be kind of grotesque for me to try to call it the "end of the world" for everyone just because I won't be in it.