Philosophy Now Forum

Constantine wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:07 am I'd definitely would have more respect for ideas trying to solve or understand such phenomena from someone who went through that vs someone who never exited the university system.

Part of what I meant was that those two paths are not mutually exclusive. Professors get married to people with different worldviews, have children with diseases, travel to other countries, have odd experiences, get sick themselves and so on. Experiences come to everyone and some of them disrupt.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:34 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:58 pm Seriously, change is the result of learning. As an amateur, Í find disheartening to think that academic philosophers are not lifelong learners.

It takes a lot to change one's core positions.

ONLY IF, and WHEN, one HAS a 'core position', which is just A 'BELIEF', in other words.

Do NOT have ANY BELIEFS, then CHANGE happens almost INSTANTANEOUSLY.

IF, and WHEN, ANY of 'you' JUST TRY 'this', then 'you' CAN and WILL SEE just HOW SIMPLE and EASY 'this' REALLY IS.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:34 pm I think experience is much more likely to do it than arguments, reading, discussion, etc.

LOL
LOL
LOL

But, 'experiencing' the EXACT SAME 'thing/s' LONGER can CAUSE 'you', people, BELIEVE 'things' MORE.

For example, MORE of 'you', people, living in the days when this is being written, BELIEVE that 'money' IS NEEDED TO LIVE and that a Truly 'Peaceful and Harmonious world' IS IMPOSSIBLE, and this is JUST BECAUSE 'you', people, have be LIVING IN and thus 'EXPERIENCING" 'this type of False, Wrong, or Incorrect 'world' or 'life'.

SEE, WHEN children GROW UP in 'a world' WHERE 'money is NOT needed' and 'Peace and Harmony PREVAIL', then 'they' will JUST SEE and BELIEVE that 'these things' ARE NOT JUST POSSIBLE, but ACTUALLY WILL BE SURPRISED how ANY one COULD 'live' ANOTHER WAY.

Now, 'they' would NOT WANT TO CHANGE to the OLD WAYS, BUT IF 'they' WANTED TO 'they' COULD, and VICE-VERSA. BUT, FROM what 'they' ARE EXPERIENCING and SEEING AS 'normal', then WHY WOULD 'they' WANT TO CHANGE?

Which IS EXACTLY what 'you', people, ARE DOING, WHEN this is being written. What 'you' ARE EXPERIENCING here 'now', 'you' BELIEVE IS 'normal', and thus, REALLY, SEE NO NEED TO CHANGE.

Therefore, 'experience', itself, can be A CURSE, TO CHANGE, and CHANGING. But, CONVERSELY, WHEN one HAS EXPERIENCED A CHANGE, then just 'this' 'experience', itself, can CAUSE A FAR QUICKER, SIMPLER, EASIER, and even SMOOTHER CHANGE.

But, as being suggest here, NOT UNTIL one HAS ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED some 'thing' itself, in PERSON or in REAL, can one THEN CHANGE TO 'believe' that 'this thing' IS REAL and True.

However, for some, even no amount of 'experience' is ENOUGH to CHANGE 'them' FROM 'their' BELIEF.

BUT, if there IS NO one having A BELIEF, then CHANGE IS ALWAYS HAPPENING, ANYWAY. And, it is FROM 'this NO BELIEF viewpoint', WHERE the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' BECOMES ALMOST INSTANTLY SEEN, and KNOWN, by the way. But do NOT take 'my word' for 'this'. TRY 'it', and EXPERIENCE 'it' FOR "yourself". JUST BECOME and REMAIN Truly OPEN for ANY particular amount of time, and JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS and OCCURS. you may well be VERY SURPRISED.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:37 am ONLY IF, and WHEN, one HAS a 'core position', which is just A 'BELIEF', in other words.

You have all sorts of beliefs. That you are from the future. That all people need to know about stopping being overweight is that they should eat less and move more. You express beliefs about people here all the time.
This is a belief

Do NOT have ANY BELIEFS, then CHANGE happens almost INSTANTANEOUSLY.

and this...

IF, and WHEN, ANY of 'you' JUST TRY 'this', then 'you' CAN and WILL SEE just HOW SIMPLE and EASY 'this' REALLY IS.

All your LOLs include implicit beliefs.

But, 'experiencing' the EXACT SAME 'thing/s' LONGER can CAUSE 'you', people, BELIEVE 'things' MORE.

I believe this sentence could be improved so that most people could understand it.

For example, MORE of 'you', people, living in the days when this is being written, BELIEVE that 'money' IS NEEDED TO LIVE and that a Truly 'Peaceful and Harmonious world' IS IMPOSSIBLE, and this is JUST BECAUSE 'you', people, have be LIVING IN and thus 'EXPERIENCING" 'this type of False, Wrong, or Incorrect 'world' or 'life'.

I don't believe what you are attributing to most of us above.

SEE, WHEN children GROW UP in 'a world' WHERE 'money is NOT needed' and 'Peace and Harmony PREVAIL', then 'they' will JUST SEE and BELIEVE that 'these things' ARE NOT JUST POSSIBLE, but ACTUALLY WILL BE SURPRISED how ANY one COULD 'live' ANOTHER WAY.

Sure.

Now, 'they' would NOT WANT TO CHANGE to the OLD WAYS, BUT IF 'they' WANTED TO 'they' COULD, and VICE-VERSA. BUT, FROM what 'they' ARE EXPERIENCING and SEEING AS 'normal', then WHY WOULD 'they' WANT TO CHANGE?

Sure.

Which IS EXACTLY what 'you', people, ARE DOING, WHEN this is being written. What 'you' ARE EXPERIENCING here 'now', 'you' BELIEVE IS 'normal', and thus, REALLY, SEE NO NEED TO CHANGE.

You just told me I see no need to change. You see that right there. You said that to me.
That is a belief you have.
It is false. I see a need to change. I do not think what is happening now is normal.
You had a belief about me. And you were wrong in that belief.

But, as being suggest here, NOT UNTIL one HAS ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED some 'thing' itself, in PERSON or in REAL, can one THEN CHANGE TO 'believe' that 'this thing' IS REAL and True.

Amongst the many things you said here that neither contradict what I said nor go against things I believe.

It seems like some kind of lecture got triggered, but not one that is relevant to me or my post.

However, for some, even no amount of 'experience' is ENOUGH to CHANGE 'them' FROM 'their' BELIEF.

Ibid

BUT, if there IS NO one having A BELIEF, then CHANGE IS ALWAYS HAPPENING, ANYWAY. And, it is FROM 'this NO BELIEF viewpoint', WHERE the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' BECOMES ALMOST INSTANTLY SEEN, and KNOWN, by the way. But do NOT take 'my word' for 'this'. TRY 'it', and EXPERIENCE 'it' FOR "yourself". JUST BECOME and REMAIN Truly OPEN for ANY particular amount of time, and JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS and OCCURS. you may well be VERY SURPRISED.

More beliefs you have.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:55 pm That would be true, if your proposal was true. Alas, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Now lets look at the concepts you take as fundamental in your way of speaking.

Truth. Claims. Evidence.

Now imagine a philosophy. A conceptual landscape, a culture and a language that doesn't have any of those terms or concepts.

Do you think that would prevent you from effectively thinking; talking about and navigating the world?

Philosophy is just conceptual design. If those constructs were useful or necessary you'd just re-invent them under another name or using different definitions. But they would ultimately perform the exact same function as the ideas you are replacing.

You say ultimate truth. Theists say God.
You say claim. Theists say testimony; or witnessing.
You say evidence. Theists say signs (from God).

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:22 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:47 am If a philosopher can't change their mind when presented with a more rational alternative, then they ain't a philosopher.

Philosophers are people, and people not only have trouble letting go of their beloved ideas (due to their intoxication and investment), but they also don't readily see that other alternatives 'are more rational'.

I understand that LW.

The point I am making is that a philosopher (or scientist) is not worth their salt if they are presented with an alternative that they understand is a more rational alternative to their own. By stubbornly sticking to their original mindset makes them a failure in their field (of thought - which is all that we R talking about).

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

Age wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:37 am ONLY IF, and WHEN, one HAS a 'core position', which is just A 'BELIEF', in other words.

You have all sorts of beliefs.

you HAVE made 'this CLAIM' BEFORE?

Do you REALLY BELIEVE that 'it' IS TRUE?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am That you are from the future.

LOL 'you' could NOT BE MORE Wrong here "iwannaplato".

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am That all people need to know about stopping being overweight is that they should eat less and move more.

LOL Even ADDING the word 'should' here could NOT TWIST and DISTORT MY ACTUAL WORDS INTO A MORE False, Wrong, Inaccurate, AND Incorrect WAY.

ONCE AGAIN, I will suggest that 'you' CONCENTRATE ONLY ON the ACTUAL WORDS, which I USE here, ALONE.

I have NEVER SAID, ALL that people NEED TO KNOW about stopping being overweight is that they should eat less and move more.

For you to ASSUME or BELIEVE SO is BEYOND ABSURD and RIDICULOUSNESS.

I have EVEN LISTED STEPS, but which now appear to have NOT been ABLE TO BE SEEN, nor HEARD.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am You express beliefs about people here all the time.
This is a belief

Do NOT have ANY BELIEFS, then CHANGE happens almost INSTANTANEOUSLY.

LOL WHY do you PRESUME, and/or BELIEVE, that 'this' IS A BELIEF, itself?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am and this...

IF, and WHEN, ANY of 'you' JUST TRY 'this', then 'you' CAN and WILL SEE just HOW SIMPLE and EASY 'this' REALLY IS.

All your LOLs include implicit beliefs.

Do THEY, REALLY?

If yes, then WHY do you ALSO PRESUME and/or BELIEVE 'this'?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

But, 'experiencing' the EXACT SAME 'thing/s' LONGER can CAUSE 'you', people, BELIEVE 'things' MORE.

I believe this sentence could be improved so that most people could understand it.

I AGREE WITH you WHOLEHEARTEDLY here that 'that sentence' could be IMPROVED so that MORE people could UNDERSTAND 'it' BETTER, (as for 'most people', we WILL have to WAIT, TO SEE).

Also, and by the way, I think EVERY sentence of mine could be IMPROVED so that MORE people could UNDERSTAND ALL of 'them' BETTER.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

For example, MORE of 'you', people, living in the days when this is being written, BELIEVE that 'money' IS NEEDED TO LIVE and that a Truly 'Peaceful and Harmonious world' IS IMPOSSIBLE, and this is JUST BECAUSE 'you', people, have be LIVING IN and thus 'EXPERIENCING" 'this type of False, Wrong, or Incorrect 'world' or 'life'.

I don't believe what you are attributing to most of us above.

As I CONTINUALLY POINT OUT, SAY, and SHOW what ANY one BELIEVES is true is NOT necessarily even true AT ALL.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

SEE, WHEN children GROW UP in 'a world' WHERE 'money is NOT needed' and 'Peace and Harmony PREVAIL', then 'they' will JUST SEE and BELIEVE that 'these things' ARE NOT JUST POSSIBLE, but ACTUALLY WILL BE SURPRISED how ANY one COULD 'live' ANOTHER WAY.

Sure.

Now, 'they' would NOT WANT TO CHANGE to the OLD WAYS, BUT IF 'they' WANTED TO 'they' COULD, and VICE-VERSA. BUT, FROM what 'they' ARE EXPERIENCING and SEEING AS 'normal', then WHY WOULD 'they' WANT TO CHANGE?

Sure.

Which APPLIES, EXACTLY, TO 'you', people, in THOSE DAYS that 'you' WERE living IN.

'you' think, and some BELIEVE, that living WITH 'money' IS NEEDED and that BICKERING, FIGHTING, and even WARRING and KILLING "each other" IS just 'NORMAL' and can NOT be CHANGED.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

Which IS EXACTLY what 'you', people, ARE DOING, WHEN this is being written. What 'you' ARE EXPERIENCING here 'now', 'you' BELIEVE IS 'normal', and thus, REALLY, SEE NO NEED TO CHANGE.

You just told me I see no need to change.

YES, I KNOW.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am You see that right there.

IF you SAY SO.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am You said that to me.

What I SAID TO you IS what I SAID TO you.

But, OBVIOUSLY, HOW you INFERRED what I ACTUALLY SAID, might well be VERY DIFFERENT TO what I ACTUALLY MEANT.

Or, do you DISAGREE here AS WELL?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am That is a belief you have.

If you BELIEVE that 'it' IS, then TO 'you' 'it' HAS TO BE.

However, if the VIEWS, within 'this body' are being 'believed' TO BE TRUE, OR, JUST being 'thought' TO BE TRUE, ONLY One KNOWS, FOR SURE. And, WHO and WHAT that One IS, EXACTLY, is NOT 'you', the 'one' here known as "iwannaplato"?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am It is false.

But what 'it' IS, EXACTLY, is ONLY A BELIEF OF 'yours'. Which, as I CONTINUALLY POINT OUT and SHOW is NOT necessarily true, AT ALL.

For starters I NEVER even HAD A BELIEF here. So, ANY BELIEF you ARE IMAGINING or BELIEVING IS here could NOT be 'false' FROM the START.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am I see a need to change. I do not think what is happening now is normal.

OKAY. BUT, what you SEE as NEEDING to CHANGE, and, what is HAPPENING 'now', which you do NOT think is 'normal', ARE 'they' the EXACT SAME 'things' I was talking ABOUT and ALLUDING TO?

Now, if you think or BELIEVE 'they' ARE, then HOW would you KNOW, FOR SURE, especially considering you NEVER SOUGHT OUT CLARITY, FIRST?

By the way, you ARE PROVING here that you, REALLY, SEE NO NEED TO CHANGE, BECAUSE all you ARE, REALLY ESSENTIALLY, DOING here is JUST 'TRYING' your HARDEST TO FIND A WAY TO PROVE me Wrong here.

'you' have NEVER even BEGUN TO SEEK OUT CLARIFICATION FROM 'me' and Truly UNDERSTAND 'me' NOR 'my views'. So, ESSENTIALLY, REALLY you ARE NOT SEEKING TO CHANGE, AT ALL here.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am You had a belief about me. And you were wrong in that belief.

DID I? And,

WAS I?

If yes, then are you ABSOLUTELY SURE?

Also, could what you BELIEVE was A BELIEF OF MINE, REALLY NOT ACTUALLY BEEN A BELIEF AT ALL, from the outset?

Or, is 'this' an IMPOSSIBILITY in your VIEW of 'things' here.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

But, as being suggest here, NOT UNTIL one HAS ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED some 'thing' itself, in PERSON or in REAL, can one THEN CHANGE TO 'believe' that 'this thing' IS REAL and True.

Amongst the many things you said here that neither contradict what I said nor go against things I believe.

There ARE quite A LOT of 'things' that you SAY and CLAIM here that I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH NOR GO AGAINST.

But does 'this' have ANY ACTUAL INFLUENCE on what I have just been SAYING and CLAIMING here?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am It seems like some kind of lecture got triggered, but not one that is relevant to me or my post.

I am NOT sure what you are talking ABOUT nor REFERRING TO here.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

However, for some, even no amount of 'experience' is ENOUGH to CHANGE 'them' FROM 'their' BELIEF.

Ibid

Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that these four letters ABSOLUTELY LOGICALLY FOLLOW ON FROM what I have now JUST POINTED OUT and SHOWED here?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:40 am

BUT, if there IS NO one having A BELIEF, then CHANGE IS ALWAYS HAPPENING, ANYWAY. And, it is FROM 'this NO BELIEF viewpoint', WHERE the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth of 'things' BECOMES ALMOST INSTANTLY SEEN, and KNOWN, by the way. But do NOT take 'my word' for 'this'. TRY 'it', and EXPERIENCE 'it' FOR "yourself". JUST BECOME and REMAIN Truly OPEN for ANY particular amount of time, and JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS and OCCURS. you may well be VERY SURPRISED.

More beliefs you have.

LOL
LOL
LOL

'you', "iwannaplato", could NOT BE BEING PRODUCING MORE Proof FOR 'THIS PROGRAM', RIGHT HERE, and NOW.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:32 am ...

Age can't even change his caps lock.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:45 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:32 am ...

Age can't even change his caps lock.

LOL

We may have made a breakthrough with Age right here becuz he has exhibited a sense of humor by LOLing.

So, Shmuel and Age were strolling along after Hebrew school. The Rebbe said funds were needed for some important temple upkeep and they were mulling it over.

Then Shmuel sees a billboard over a church: “If you convert to Christianity you will receive $5,000 in cash today”.

Shmuel is skeptical but Age decides to ‘convoit’ and give the money to the Rebbe. “Wait here, Shmuel , this won’t take long!” and he goes inside.

Hours pass. Finally Age exits and joins Shmuel. But Age says nothing. Minutes go by.

“Well?” says Shmuel, “Did you get the money??”

Age then turns and glares at him saying:

“Is THAT literally ALL, I mean ABSOLUTELY ALL, that YOU PEOPLE think about “Shmuel”?!?”

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:04 am The point I am making is that a philosopher (or scientist) is not worth their salt if they are presented with an alternative that they understand is a more rational alternative to their own. By stubbornly sticking to their original mindset makes them a failure in their field (of thought - which is all that we R talking about).

Oh, is that all we are talking about? Or is that all you are thinking about?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:20 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 10:04 am The point I am making is that a philosopher (or scientist) is not worth their salt if they are presented with an alternative that they understand is a more rational alternative to their own. By stubbornly sticking to their original mindset makes them a failure in their field (of thought - which is all that we R talking about).

Oh, is that all we are talking about? Or is that all you are thinking about?

Well, we're not even talking R we? We are actually writing to each other. But anyway the answer is in the thread title!

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:07 pm the answer is in the thread title!

And a most excellent title it is!

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 1:58 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:07 pm the answer is in the thread title!

And a most excellent title it is!

Sure, if you are into oxymoronics.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:51 pm We may have made a breakthrough with Age right here becuz he has exhibited a sense of humor by LOLing.

Assuming your irony, I nevertheless want to say that LOL has become a trope that has little to do with laughter. And means something closer 'you are pathetic' than what it's an abbreviation for. And even when it 'means' what it's an abbreviation for, people often aren't laughing. It's the equivalent of someone not laughing but saying 'that's really funny'.

We've become a species of indicators without insides.