Philosophy Now Forum

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:43 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:58 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:49 pm Wasn't it the Bush Jr. administration of your country, so the "right", that launched a series of wars in the 2000s?

Oh, sure. With enormous bipartisan support, but yes. And the Left did come out against those wars. It's a more recent shift, from my perspective, to where the Left is more intervention positive.

I don't think the left switched from being intervention negative in general to intervention positive in general. I think the left has just seen some particular interventions in the past as unwise or unjust, and now see this particular intervention as wise or just.

It's a fair point, but I don't think the Left of the 60s, early 70s would have approved of what the US is doing in the Ukraine.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:23 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:16 pm We have no choice but to reason with them.

Who is the "them" with whom we hope to "reason" so that the war ends?

Putin and Jinping.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:23 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:16 pm We have no choice but to reason with them.

Who is the "them" with whom we hope to "reason" so that the war ends?

Putin and Jinping. Do I really need to clarify my point? Could you not ascertain that I was referring to Putin and Jinping?

No, I could not. I could honestly not imagine that you were talking about two known-dictators as if "reason" was how we were going to get them to do differently than they're already doing; and I can't imagine why you'd leave out the American warmongers who are pushing this war, too. Nobody on any side is "rational" here. They're all being merely strategic in their own selfish interests.

That much should be very clear to any observer, regardless of his political affiliation.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:52 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:23 pm
Who is the "them" with whom we hope to "reason" so that the war ends?

Putin and Jinping. Do I really need to clarify my point? Could you not ascertain that I was referring to Putin and Jinping?

No, I could not. I could honestly not imagine that you were talking about two known-dictators as if "reason" was how we were going to get them to do differently than they're already doing; and I can't imagine why you'd leave out the American warmongers who are pushing this war, too. Nobody on any side is "rational" here. They're all being merely strategic in their own selfish interests.

That much should be very clear to any observer, regardless of his political affiliation.

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:54 pm

mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:15 pm Neo-Nazism

Ah, yes...the Left's bogeyman, used to justify all the evil they do...

You are right that the charge of Neo-Nazism is overused. It is a logical fallacy, that I think most here will recognise and avoid, to infer from that that it is incorrectly applied here. And the alert PhiNowers will have observed that you haven’t actually denied the charge, still less provided any reason to doubt its application.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:52 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:47 pm

Putin and Jinping. Do I really need to clarify my point? Could you not ascertain that I was referring to Putin and Jinping?

No, I could not. I could honestly not imagine that you were talking about two known-dictators as if "reason" was how we were going to get them to do differently than they're already doing; and I can't imagine why you'd leave out the American warmongers who are pushing this war, too. Nobody on any side is "rational" here. They're all being merely strategic in their own selfish interests.

That much should be very clear to any observer, regardless of his political affiliation.

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:58 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:54 pm

mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:15 pm Neo-Nazism

Ah, yes...the Left's bogeyman, used to justify all the evil they do...

...you haven’t actually denied the charge, still less provided any reason to doubt its application.

Oh. So you get to slander people, and if they don't bother to refute your absurd, false and downright anachronistic charge, you think that makes them guilty?

Think again. Or at least, start thinking for the first time.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:52 pm
No, I could not. I could honestly not imagine that you were talking about two known-dictators as if "reason" was how we were going to get them to do differently than they're already doing; and I can't imagine why you'd leave out the American warmongers who are pushing this war, too. Nobody on any side is "rational" here. They're all being merely strategic in their own selfish interests.

That much should be very clear to any observer, regardless of his political affiliation.

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

So definitely not the senile warmonger Biden then.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:56 pm

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

So definitely not the senile warmonger Biden then.

Well, his policy seems to be that the war must continue until the regime changes -- or so he has publicly declared. Putin will not allow that to happen -- not, we may well suspect, even if he has to fire nukes. He can't afford to let that happen: like all dictators, he'll end up hanging in the public square if he ever loses, and he knows it. So we can expect that the current policy will result in total escalation.

I'm against that.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:52 pm
No, I could not. I could honestly not imagine that you were talking about two known-dictators as if "reason" was how we were going to get them to do differently than they're already doing; and I can't imagine why you'd leave out the American warmongers who are pushing this war, too. Nobody on any side is "rational" here. They're all being merely strategic in their own selfish interests.

That much should be very clear to any observer, regardless of his political affiliation.

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

I've been telling everyone I know how to tell to get the word out that the war in Ukraine needs to stop. What "crimes" am I holding the Biden administration "accountable" for? Unlike the Bush Jr. Administration and Putin, Biden didn't initiate any illegal invasions. The worst crime I can peg on Biden is being provocative for calling for regime change in Russia and being hypocritical considering what we've done in the past ourselves.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:11 pmOh. So you get to slander people, and if they don't bother to refute your absurd, false and downright anachronistic charge, you think that makes them guilty?

No, I think you are probably a Neo-Nazi, but I recognise there is still some room for doubt. What there is no doubt about is that you behave exactly like one. If you really aren't a Neo-Nazi you can stop behaving like one anytime you like.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:16 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:09 pm
Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

So definitely not the senile warmonger Biden then.

Well, his policy seems to be that the war must continue until the regime changes -- or so he has publicly declared. Putin will not allow that to happen -- not, we may well suspect, even if he has to fire nukes. He can't afford to let that happen: like all dictators, he'll end up hanging in the public square if he ever loses, and he knows it. So we can expect that the current policy will result in total escalation.

I'm against that.

How exactly do you 'stop a war'? By making it a bigger war?

mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:11 pmOh. So you get to slander people, and if they don't bother to refute your absurd, false and downright anachronistic charge, you think that makes them guilty?

No, I think you are probably a Neo-Nazi, but I recognise there is still some room for doubt. What there is no doubt about is that you behave exactly like one. If you really aren't a Neo-Nazi you can stop behaving like one anytime you like.

I doubt he's a Neo-Nazi. We're all human, after all. He just seems to empathize with them more so than he does with gay people.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:09 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:56 pm

I live in the US. I am an American citizen. What else am I supposed to do other than encourage my leaders (whether I approve of them or not), and fellow citizens to make more effort to concede to Putin's will? What is your solution to this?

Vote for candidates that will end the war in Ukraine and call all those accountable to pay for their crimes.

Simple.

What "crimes" am I holding the Biden administration "accountable" for?

I didn't mention the Biden administration. Funny that your throughts went right there. It's almost like everybody knows something...

Unlike the Bush Jr. Administration and Putin, Biden didn't initiate any illegal invasions.

No. He pulled out of one, and left billions of dollars of US equipment there...it's almost like he was glad the arms dealers were going to get paid...yet again.

But I'll say it again: there are warmongers on both sides of the House. And they all need to answer for what they've done. If the ones you think of most readily happen to be Democrats, well, that's not my doing.

mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:34 pm I recognise there is still some room for doubt.

I find your estimation in that totally uninteresting, either way.