Philosophy Now Forum

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:05 am

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 10:51 am

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"? How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

They are constantly getting attention(hopefully)/love(hopefully) from parents/family. They are hearing about what humans are, what boys are, what ______________are. They are hearing tales about people. And nowadays media of all kinds constantly telling them what a person is, what a good person is. So there are generalized messages aimed at people in general which they get. Then are are specific messages and reactions that they are getting from people who know them. Then they are trying things, doing things, and getting feedback from the world. This went well, this didn't. They may start forming ideas about their abilities through this interaction with things and people. Whatever innate tendencies they have will affect how they take things and what they can do from the start and how hard they try and to some extent character, temperment, interests and tendencies - though all the role models and reactions from others are also affecting these things. Comparing oneself to others. Identifying with these people over here and not those over there. Striving after a while to meet goals based on all of the above and succeeding or not creates a continuous flow of information to build a sense of self from.

What I find interesting is the question of how people gain a sense of self that is completely AGAINST all these forces, or at least indifferent to them. People who end up with a sense of self that isn't based on what other people find likeable or virtuous or worth rewarding.

If one is continually TOLD that 'you are bad', 'you are NOT good', et cetera, and being TOLD 'these things' FROM someone who SAYS 'them' while BELIEVING 'them', then 'that one' grows up BELIEVING that 'it' IS 'those things' AS WELL. And, OBVIOUSLY, if 'one' IS 'bad', or 'NOT good', then they would NOT do what is 'good' NOR 'likeable' by "others".

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:14 am

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:05 am What I find interesting is the question of how people gain a sense of self that is completely AGAINST all these forces, or at least indifferent to them. People who end up with a sense of self that isn't based on what other people find likeable or virtuous or worth rewarding.

Some definitely rebel. Though I think that often this can be (in part) due to the kinds of feedback/attention/messages they get also. But we do have built in character traits. We are not tabula rasa and separated twin studies seem to confirm this.

What 'seems' to confirm some 'thing' does NOT mean that 'it' DOES confirm 'that thing'.

Human beings are, 'for the sake of argument here', 'born' WITH, or beforehand HAVE, an ABSOLUTE absence of preconceived ideas or predetermined goals; a clean slate, or in other words, 'tabula rasa'.

Human beings, in the days when this is being written, do NOT YET REALIZE just HOW MUCH POWER lays BEHIND the words that are SAID, WRITTEN, and USED, and even when SAID WITHIN.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:14 am I think however it is very hard not to be affected by what we are told humans are, boys are, for example, even nonverbally told. We build up all sorts of norms in people. Perhaps they decide to be a criminal, but they are still likely conceiving all sorts of things via nurture - their criminal personas even will have aspects of movie criminals. Ideas of masculinity will still be affecting them - in addition to whatever in built in. When to show emotion, when not. Which emotions are ok. How much.

They'll likely still seem to have American personalities to Japanese people in Japan or see to be 'English' with the Amish.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:32 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:28 amIF ..
It is very possible relatively because the feral human child has inherent human potentials of which some potential unfolds with age, e.g. puberty.

Interesting how you ignore how intelligence and its potentials relays between feral children and dogs.

How would intelligence, hypothetically, affect Sense-of-Self?

I merely did not mention but did not ignore 'intelligence' [the feral human child has inherent human potentials of which some potential unfolds with age].

As I had stated, humans even if nurtured as feral, their potentials as human as inherent in their brain are likely to unfold and manifest but not as much [10%] as any normal human beings [if indexed @ 100/100].

There is a basic sense of self, i.e. the personal identity of "I".
This "I" is then "dressed-up" depending on one's innate psychological state and nurturing conditions.

All humans has the potential to be intelligent [human intelligence in contrast to other animals].
Einstein was supposed to be rated as very intelligent, and his intelligence would have effected him in his own unique ways. Not every intelligent person have the same developed sense-of-self.
A highly intelligent with a high ego [egoistic maniac] may have a different sense of self from one who is humble.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:28 amI merely did not mention but did not ignore 'intelligence' [the feral human child has inherent human potentials of which some potential unfolds with age].

As I had stated, humans even if nurtured as feral, their potentials as human as inherent in their brain are likely to unfold and manifest but not as much [10%] as any normal human beings [if indexed @ 100/100].

There is a basic sense of self, i.e. the personal identity of "I".
This "I" is then "dressed-up" depending on one's innate psychological state and nurturing conditions.

All humans has the potential to be intelligent [human intelligence in contrast to other animals].
Einstein was supposed to be rated as very intelligent, and his intelligence would have effected him in his own unique ways. Not every intelligent person have the same developed sense-of-self.
A highly intelligent with a high ego [egoistic maniac] may have a different sense of self from one who is humble.

So increased intelligence implies increased differentiation of "I/Identity/Sense-of-Self"?

Intelligence leads to divergent Identities, correct?

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:58 pmLOL Saying, 'If EVERY body and EVERY thing IS THE SAME', is NONSENSICAL.

You just said belief in being different is "ILLUSORY".

So now you contradict yourself. Or worse, you're a liar.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:14 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:28 amI merely did not mention but did not ignore 'intelligence' [the feral human child has inherent human potentials of which some potential unfolds with age].

As I had stated, humans even if nurtured as feral, their potentials as human as inherent in their brain are likely to unfold and manifest but not as much [10%] as any normal human beings [if indexed @ 100/100].

There is a basic sense of self, i.e. the personal identity of "I".
This "I" is then "dressed-up" depending on one's innate psychological state and nurturing conditions.

All humans has the potential to be intelligent [human intelligence in contrast to other animals].
Einstein was supposed to be rated as very intelligent, and his intelligence would have effected him in his own unique ways. Not every intelligent person have the same developed sense-of-self.
A highly intelligent with a high ego [egoistic maniac] may have a different sense of self from one who is humble.

So increased intelligence implies increased differentiation of "I/Identity/Sense-of-Self"?

Intelligence leads to divergent Identities, correct?

Not referring to feral child.

You need to give examples as to the direction you are going into.

The basic human sense of self is sort of permanent, i.e. the "I" or "I am human".
But the manifested resulting sense-of-self "I am so and so" is differentiated and diversified from other selves based on many factors, e.g. intelligence, stupidity, wise, evil, emotional states, etc.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:30 amNot referring to feral child.

You need to give examples as to the direction you are going into.

The basic human sense of self is sort of permanent, i.e. the "I" or "I am human".
But the manifested resulting sense-of-self "I am so and so" is differentiated and diversified from other selves based on many factors, e.g. intelligence, stupidity, wise, evil, emotional states, etc.

"I am Human" is symbolic of self-consciousness. The animal, which is human/hominid, identifies "itself" as belonging to a larger set, class, and distinction of animals. The individual (I) belongs to a larger category. The process of individuation is within the 'I' as a function...of what? A function of intelligence.

It is the intelligence that is 'dividing' itself out of the generality/class/specie.

Thus intelligence sets humans apart from canines, and individuals from societies.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:52 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:30 amNot referring to feral child.

You need to give examples as to the direction you are going into.

The basic human sense of self is sort of permanent, i.e. the "I" or "I am human".
But the manifested resulting sense-of-self "I am so and so" is differentiated and diversified from other selves based on many factors, e.g. intelligence, stupidity, wise, evil, emotional states, etc.

"I am Human" is symbolic of self-consciousness. The animal, which is human/hominid, identifies "itself" as belonging to a larger set, class, and distinction of animals. The individual (I) belongs to a larger category. The process of individuation is within the 'I' as a function...of what? A function of intelligence.

It is the intelligence that is 'dividing' itself out of the generality/class/specie.

Thus intelligence sets humans apart from canines, and individuals from societies.

I have some reservation with regard to intelligence itself setting humans apart from canines, because dogs, higher primates, crows, dolphins, elephants, octopuses, etc. has demonstrated some sort of intelligence.

I believe what is more distinct with humans apart from other animals is a much higher sense of self-awareness or self-consciousness [looking into the mirror and recognize themselves] which are limited to a small degree in only some animals.

Other than the above, below are what separate humans from the all if not the majority of animals [99.9%].

The human brain possesses several distinct functions that are generally considered more advanced or uniquely developed compared to other animals. Some of these functions include:

Language and Communication: Humans have highly developed language abilities, allowing for complex communication through spoken and written words. While other animals may have their own forms of communication, human language is unique in its complexity and ability to convey abstract concepts.

Symbolic Thinking and Abstract Reasoning: Humans have the capacity for symbolic thinking, enabling the use of symbols and abstract concepts to represent and manipulate information. This ability is fundamental to various cognitive processes such as mathematics, art, and conceptual reasoning.

Metacognition: Humans have the ability to reflect on their own thoughts and think about thinking, known as metacognition. This includes self-awareness, introspection, and the ability to monitor and regulate one's own cognitive processes.

Future Planning and Mental Time Travel: Humans have the capacity to mentally project themselves into the future, plan ahead, and anticipate consequences. This ability for mental time travel enables us to consider future scenarios and make decisions based on long-term goals.

Theory of Mind: Theory of mind refers to the ability to understand that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions that may differ from one's own. Humans have a well-developed theory of mind, allowing us to attribute mental states to others and infer their thoughts and perspectives.

Executive Functions: Humans possess advanced executive functions, including the ability to inhibit impulses, plan and organize behavior, set goals, and adapt to changing circumstances. These functions play a crucial role in decision-making, problem-solving, and self-control.

Moral Sense:

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:17 am

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:58 pmLOL Saying, 'If EVERY body and EVERY thing IS THE SAME', is NONSENSICAL.

You just said belief in being different is "ILLUSORY".

Did I?

Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that these ARE the EXACT WORDS that I SAID and WROTE here?

If yes, then what WAS the EXACT CONTEXT those words where IN?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:17 am So now you contradict yourself.

If you SAY and BELIEVE so, then 'it' MUST BE SO, correct?

By the way, will you provide the EXACT WORDING of mine, which led you to BELIEVE that I have contradicted "myself'?

If no, then why not?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:17 am Or worse, you're a liar.

We will just have TO WAIT, TO SEE what you come up next, TO THEN SEE what the ACTUAL Truth IS here.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:16 amAn awareness of being 'different' is forming.

This sense of 'being different', or 'separate', which IS ACTUALLY 'ILLUSORY', as "dontaskme" would say, then forms a 'sense of self', which AGAIN is False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, but which ACTUALLY exists, though just in ILLUSION.

You said it right here, you little weasel.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:05 amI have some reservation with regard to intelligence itself setting humans apart from canines, because dogs, higher primates, crows, dolphins, elephants, octopuses, etc. has demonstrated some sort of intelligence.

I believe what is more distinct with humans apart from other animals is a much higher sense of self-awareness or self-consciousness [looking into the mirror and recognize themselves] which are limited to a small degree in only some animals.

Other than the above, below are what separate humans from the all if not the majority of animals [99.9%].

The human brain possesses several distinct functions that are generally considered more advanced or uniquely developed compared to other animals. Some of these functions include:

Language and Communication: Humans have highly developed language abilities, allowing for complex communication through spoken and written words. While other animals may have their own forms of communication, human language is unique in its complexity and ability to convey abstract concepts.

Symbolic Thinking and Abstract Reasoning: Humans have the capacity for symbolic thinking, enabling the use of symbols and abstract concepts to represent and manipulate information. This ability is fundamental to various cognitive processes such as mathematics, art, and conceptual reasoning.

Metacognition: Humans have the ability to reflect on their own thoughts and think about thinking, known as metacognition. This includes self-awareness, introspection, and the ability to monitor and regulate one's own cognitive processes.

Future Planning and Mental Time Travel: Humans have the capacity to mentally project themselves into the future, plan ahead, and anticipate consequences. This ability for mental time travel enables us to consider future scenarios and make decisions based on long-term goals.

Theory of Mind: Theory of mind refers to the ability to understand that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions that may differ from one's own. Humans have a well-developed theory of mind, allowing us to attribute mental states to others and infer their thoughts and perspectives.

Executive Functions: Humans possess advanced executive functions, including the ability to inhibit impulses, plan and organize behavior, set goals, and adapt to changing circumstances. These functions play a crucial role in decision-making, problem-solving, and self-control.

Moral Sense:

So these traits allow a human to set him/herself apart from animals.

How then do humans set themselves apart from each-other?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:28 am I wanted to divert the Cartesian thread to a more generalized concept of 'Self' or 'I'/Identity.

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"? How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

Your pre-supposition is flawed. We don't have identities - we have complex histories.

The sort of thing you cal "identity" in a social setting is a carricature of a human being. It's a reductionist story - a linguistic avatar that leaves out large chunks of one's history.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:51 pm

Age wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:16 amAn awareness of being 'different' is forming.

This sense of 'being different', or 'separate', which IS ACTUALLY 'ILLUSORY', as "dontaskme" would say, then forms a 'sense of self', which AGAIN is False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, but which ACTUALLY exists, though just in ILLUSION.

You said it right here, you little weasel.

Firstly, what do you even mean by, 'you little weasel'? All I did was just ask you if you were ABSOLUTELY SURE if they were the EXACT WORDS that I SAID and WROTE, and, if they were, to you, then I just asked you, what WAS the EXACT CONTEXT those words were IN?

Secondly, you SAID and WROTE, 'You just said belief in being different is "ILLUSORY".' Now, as can be CLEARLY SEEN I NEVER EVER DID ACTUALLY say ANY such 'thing'. So, they are NOT the EXACT WORDS, which I SAID and WROTE. So, if you continue to SEE, and thus READ, words that I NEVER ACTUALLY WROTE, then you WILL continue to MISINTERPRET or MISUNDERSTAND what I ACTUALLY WRITE, and MEAN.

Thirdly, I could have SAID and WRITTEN what I did there a LOT LESS CLUMSILY. Thus, I can SEE WHERE you might have thought, or believed, there was some sort of CONTRADICTION there.

BUT, UNTIL you WRITE the EXACT WORDS that I ACTUALLY USE, 'things' could only GET MORE CONFUSED here.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:44 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:28 am I wanted to divert the Cartesian thread to a more generalized concept of 'Self' or 'I'/Identity.

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"? How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

Your pre-supposition is flawed. We don't have identities - we have complex histories.

What do you mean by 'complex' histories.

To me, there are just 'histories'. ALL VERY DIFFERENT from one individual, to another, but NEVER 'complex', just DIFFERENT.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:44 pm The sort of thing you cal "identity" in a social setting is a carricature of a human being. It's a reductionist story - a linguistic avatar that leaves out large chunks of one's history.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:55 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:44 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:28 am I wanted to divert the Cartesian thread to a more generalized concept of 'Self' or 'I'/Identity.

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"? How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

Your pre-supposition is flawed. We don't have identities - we have complex histories.

What do you mean by 'complex' histories.

To me, there are just 'histories'. ALL VERY DIFFERENT from one individual, to another, but NEVER 'complex', just DIFFERENT.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:44 pm The sort of thing you cal "identity" in a social setting is a carricature of a human being. It's a reductionist story - a linguistic avatar that leaves out large chunks of one's history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity