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Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:19 pm
by Skepdick
Harbal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:56 pm
Don't be modest, you seem genuinely insignificant to me.
Ahh, I thought my insignificance wasn't genuine.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:41 pm
by Wizard22
It doesn't have to be supernatural.
It can be as simple as being an adult, and returning to your childhood home. The memories you have of it, are significant. It's completely subjective.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm
by Dontaskme
Nothing supernatural about the natural, nature is made up of simple and ordinary forces and matter interacting with each other.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:57 pm
by iambiguous
"Numinosity refers to the spiritual power in the relationship between the individual and other people and things."
I was once a devout Christian. And I felt something akin to this in church. But once God and religious crumbled in my life I have only felt this sort of "spirituality" in regard to the staggering mystery that is existence itself. Something analogous I suspect to what those like Einstein felt.
The more you think -- really think -- about questions of this sort...
Why something instead of nothing?
Why this something and not something else?
Where does the human condition fit into the whole understanding of this particular something itself?
What of solipsism, sim worlds, dream worlds, the Matrix?
What of the multiverse?
...the deeper the mystery gets and the more you are left grappling to find something -- anything -- that might possibly explain it.
As for nature itself, no, try as I might, I have never felt anything akin to a "spiritual" connection to it.
And then the part where nature revolves as well around these things...
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."
The other side of this "spiritual" coin as it were.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm
by Iwannaplato
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm
Nothing supernatural about the natural, nature is made up of simple and ordinary forces and matter interacting with each other.
Sure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 pm
by Dontaskme
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm
Nothing supernatural about the natural, nature is made up of simple and ordinary forces and matter interacting with each other.
Sure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
Call it whatever super or not so super makes no difference to the fact that it’s unknowable even to itself.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pm
by Iwannaplato
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:00 pm
Nothing supernatural about the natural, nature is made up of simple and ordinary forces and matter interacting with each other.
Sure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
Call it whatever super or not so super makes no difference to the fact that it’s unknowable even to itself.
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.
Some odd things are going on. There's still things to discover.
And 'matter' that's a word with no meaning. It just means 'stuff considered real' by materialists.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:23 am
by Maia
iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:57 pm
"Numinosity refers to the spiritual power in the relationship between the individual and other people and things."
I was once a devout Christian. And I felt something akin to this in church. But once God and religious crumbled in my life I have only felt this sort of "spirituality" in regard to the staggering mystery that is existence itself. Something analogous I suspect to what those like Einstein felt.
The more you think -- really
think -- about questions of this sort...
Why something instead of nothing?
Why this something and not something else?
Where does the human condition fit into the whole understanding of this particular something itself?
What of solipsism, sim worlds, dream worlds, the Matrix?
What of the multiverse?
...the deeper the mystery gets and the more you are left grappling to find something -- anything -- that might possibly explain it.
As for nature itself, no, try as I might, I have never felt anything akin to a "spiritual" connection to it.
And then the part where nature revolves as well around these things...
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."
The other side of this "spiritual" coin as it were.
I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not experience such numinous feelings with regard to nature, but that's just me, of course. And yes, the power of nature is awesome, and can indeed be frightening. This in no way detracts from its power.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:56 am
by Iwannaplato
Maia wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:23 am
I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not experience such numinous feelings with regard to nature, but that's just me, of course. And yes, the power of nature is awesome, and can indeed be frightening. This in no way detracts from its power.
I think a lot of factors can lead to this. The Abrahamic traditions create a pressure to view nature at best as neutral at worst as something quite negative. We also have a whole history of contrasting humans with nature. Humans being above nature and better than nature, civilization at war with nature (outside us, inside us). And it doesn't really matter if, for example, one's parents are humanists, they still may have inherited a distaste for nature. Of course both humanists and Abrahamists can love nature, even immerse themselves in it regularly. But there are huge meme pressures from humanists and Abrahamists that want to separate us from animals/plants and nature in general. The pagan/animist/shamanist ways of looking at the world are suppressed by both sides of what is often looked at as a two sided struggle when in fact there are more players in the game.
Of course any child can rebel against parental views And there have always been alternative views and individuals in civilization.
Growing up in a city can also leave one at a loss in nature. It's not a rule, but it can limit one.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:17 am
by Maia
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:56 am
Maia wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:23 am
I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not experience such numinous feelings with regard to nature, but that's just me, of course. And yes, the power of nature is awesome, and can indeed be frightening. This in no way detracts from its power.
I think a lot of factors can lead to this. The Abrahamic traditions create a pressure to view nature at best as neutral at worst as something quite negative. We also have a whole history of contrasting humans with nature. Humans being above nature and better than nature, civilization at war with nature (outside us, inside us). And it doesn't really matter if, for example, one's parents are humanists, they still may have inherited a distaste for nature. Of course both humanists and Abrahamists can love nature, even immerse themselves in it regularly. But there are huge meme pressures from humanists and Abrahamists that want to separate us from animals/plants and nature in general. The pagan/animist/shamanist ways of looking at the world are suppressed by both sides of what is often looked at as a two sided struggle when in fact there are more players in the game.
Of course any child can rebel against parental views And there have always been alternative views and individuals in civilization.
Growing up in a city can also leave one at a loss in nature. It's not a rule, but it can limit one.
Abrahamic religions also regard nature as something to be exploited, and this de-sacralisation of the natural world over many centuries has led people to feel disconnected and adrift.
Cities can indeed be soulless and unpleasant places, though not always, I suppose, and I've mostly lived in more suburban areas anyway. I was, however, lucky enough to go to a school that was out in the countryside.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:46 am
by Dontaskme
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pm
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.
I don't know this.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pmSome odd things are going on. There's still things to discover.
How odd.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pmAnd 'matter' that's a word with no meaning. It just means 'stuff considered real' by materialists.
How very odd.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:05 am
by Dontaskme
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pm
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.
I'm referring to the concept posited by Maia (Numinous)
It indicates the presence of a divinity. It's a fallacy. There is nothing divine about being torn to shreds and being eaten alive by a hungry bear.
Reality is unknowable. Of course reality is seen, but it is impossible to see the source of seeing.
'You' cannot even locate your apparent physical eye. Your own eye, not someone elses.
Yes, 'you' can see an image in the mirror... but that image is not the source of seeing... it is seen.
Yes, there is the experience of feeling goosebumps at nature. It's your own nature, not some other thing called divinity beyond you.
Every person seen is an object of sight... no image can see - whether they have a good eye or a bad eye. No more that the image of a person in a nightly dream can see.
Reality is simple: there is only One.
One is unknowable. How can one know itself, it would have to split into two, into knower and known.
As One experiences life from the perspective of a blind person, the faculty of sight remains 'dormant'... no images are apparent. But this is just an experience... the experience of being blind.
There are here, only experiences, in this unknowable experiencing.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:59 am
by Harbal
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:05 am
Yes, there is the experience of feeling goosebumps at nature. It's your own nature, not some other thing called divinity beyond you.
Very well put.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:38 pm
by Sculptor
There is nothing about a space, unless you know what its importance is.
We are all the time walking upon ground that has seen death and destruction for millions of years.
It is only when you have been informed that the ground is "scared" that you are filled with a sense of awe.
This is powerful evidence that the "feeling" in endogenous, and not some mystical essence of the earth.
Re: Numinosity
Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:43 pm
by Maia
Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:38 pm
There is nothing about a space, unless you know what its importance is.
We are all the time walking upon ground that has seen death and destruction for millions of years.
It is only when you have been informed that the ground is "scared" that you are filled with a sense of awe.
This is powerful evidence that the "feeling" in endogenous, and not some mystical essence of the earth.
I don't think that's true, though. I can go to a place I've never been before and know nothing about, and get a sudden numinous feeling. That's why I think there must be some physical process at work.