Philosophy Now Forum

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 11:25 am

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:57 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:38 amI don't, but you are the one who set the bounds of possibility:

Was it me...or you? Did I not state to break bounds of possibility? That's what I suggest be done.

The bounds of possibility can’t be broken, or they wouldn’t be bounds, would they?

As long as you stay really abstract, bounds restrict nary a glorious assertion.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:51 pmThis ain't my first rodeo, cowboy...YEEEHAWW!

Ride 'em hard, then.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 6:41 pm

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:51 pmThis ain't my first rodeo, cowboy...YEEEHAWW!

Ride 'em hard, then.

I suppose some might not catch Kubrick's irony, and, well, some say character is destiny.

if the will behind the action is not free, there is no moral responsibility...

-Imp

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmTo me those terms are not remotely synonyms. One could be determinist and optimistic and fight against tyranny. One could, sure, be a determinist and have pretty much any attitude. Cynicism is an attitude about life. Determinsm is a set of beliefs in Metaphysics.

Empiricists can be happy or sad or optimistic or.....
Deontologists can be cynical or Pollyanas.

It's a kind of category error.

You don't see the link between Cynicism and Determinism? Cynicism seems to follow Deterministic beliefs. Because what 'power' does a Determinist really have in life, when he or she has no significant control over society or existence, or even him/herself? She is Fated to be as she is, Destined to do as she does. If she is well off in life, lives in luxury, then she attributes it to Luck and Chance. If she is less fortunate, or depressed while rich, then it's "out of her control".

Any sense of "control" the Determinist has, is an illusion, a self-delusion. You are always the reaction of what preceded you. Since you cannot change the past, you cannot change the present nor future. What the determinist calls his or her impulses, emotions, experiences, are merely passively witnessed, as-if from a foreign entity (God maybe?). There is no possible action you can take in life, that attributes you to a Cause, or that redirects your "Fate". The Determinist is completely absolved from all responsibility and negative consequences, a state of perpetual innocence. Tyranny? You were born into it. There's nothing you can do to change it. And those who believe they can, are deluding themselves. Those that actually do make changes, are Fated to do so, or...Lucky.

It's never because of them, because they had a free-will.

(Correct me where I'm wrong)

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmI never said you chose for someone. Presumably people choose themselves. It's your belief. You talked about freeing the will. This to me means it isn't free at one point in time and then someone chooses to free their own wills.

Yes, I asked you and the general audience, how a will becomes 'free'. How the will is freed? From what? To do, what? I'm asking you too, specifically.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmRight, but again. When you mention freeing the will, it implies at one point it is not free then later it is. It seems from what you wrote above you see people 'settling' and this leads to them not have free wills. Later they can free their will (again.)

These aren't constant throughout life, you do realize this? Does an infant have a large or small amount of freedom? Does a 100-year-old elder have large or small freedom? No, what people consider 'free' generally correlates to a Mature, Adult human being. A person is 'freer' at the height of their physical, mental, spiritual power.

Correct?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmIf this is what you believe, then this isn't in the right forum. People who believe in free will in a metaphysics sense do not think that your will can be unfree now but free later.

This is not true, and pretty sure your statement is a logical fallacy. Why do you link metaphysics to an unchanging 'free' state of will? The only thing Metaphysics requires, is the possibility of free-will. That's all. Hard Determinism wants to rule that possibility out completely. Soft Determinism wants to include some free-will insofar as it would, hypothetically, remain 'compatible' to physical expectations and scientific reasoning.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmThat has to do with political and social and individual freedom. Do you use the full ranges of options? Do you value the freedom to do this or that or all those things?

All things

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 10:37 amHow have I clipped my wings? Please be specific or mention some thing about my life.

There's no example of soaring: For example, how are you soaring in a way I am not? How do you soar in a way that no one has before

Because you suggested the constraint first.

Where did I suggest constraint? I noticed you talking about freeing the will, which seemed to indicate a non-free state and then when you free the will a free state.

You suggested constraint in your very first sentence response, that I "choose freedom" as-if I am the qualifier. Why do you presume it's up to me? I am talking about the specific physical forces in somebody's life that causes them to go from an unfree, to a free state of being. Is it only Belief? Is it blind-faith? Or is there more to it? What would faith in free-will look like?

A prisoner is in a jail cell, for a crime he didn't commit. He wishes he were free. Is his desire, the basis of and for his free-will?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmUm, you're just making stuff up about somone you don't know.

I'm making up what you've already said?

I know that every single human being who has ever existed, or will exist, uses themselves first as an example of what they believe to be free or unfree. So Free-Will is really an exposition of your spirit or soul. It's almost like a Confession. People confess to their Restraints, Limitations, Inabilites. They do not do the same for traits they Desire, for what they Want and Will.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmYou don't seem to know much about me. You've been wrong repeatedly.

I know your first response to this thread. Isn't that something about you? No take backs!

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 12:45 pmWhat?

What?

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 10:37 amNo, that doesn't describe me well at all. I am not a moral realist, as a start. And I am a huge fan of freedom, both on the political and personal levels.

What do you do that shows how free you are ?

Hallucinate stuff about other people?

I guess I've done that on occasion, but it's not a source of pride.

Yes, call it a Hallucination if you like. I've only just begun.

You haven't given a single example of you soaring. You haven't given a single example of what you dream of achieving, some future soaring. You made claims about me, but did nothing to back them up.

You haven't clarified what YOU are talking about.

I have time constraints. Take em as you get em. I guess my free-will isn't Absolute then is it? I still have some time transcendence to do...

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 1:50 am if the will behind the action is not free, there is no moral responsibility...

-Imp

Short.

Succinct.

True.

Any Determinists care to respond to this point? ...Iwannaplato? ...Flannel_Jesus? ...Sculptor? ...Belinda?

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:18 am

Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 1:50 am if the will behind the action is not free, there is no moral responsibility...

-Imp

Short.

Succinct.

True.

Any Determinists care to respond to this point? ...Iwannaplato? ...Flannel_Jesus? ...Sculptor? ...Belinda?

I'm not exactly a determinist either, but the problem with this short, succinct quote is that the word "free" is ambiguous. Free from what? Or alternatively, free TO what?

Has anyone read the literature, all that's ready-at-hand, on free will? I believe the free will flower is blooming, quite well, in a particular field, somewhere in Montserrat! That's where HE lived, 20 suns ago; I lost track of the guy in 1984 ... the news reports I've sampled don't have anything that would suggest he's crossed over to the other side though ... yeah, plenty train collisions & derailments, but much to my relief, no tortoise fatalities in any one of 'em.

Free will, free will
The flower, on the window sill
My name is Bill
Alias Ms. Jill

I presume he meant that a person's will is generally free as opposed to restricted.

Morality is absurd, cannot make logical sense, without an ability for a person to freely make Choices.

Wizard22 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:14 am I presume he meant that a person's will is generally free as opposed to restricted.

Morality is absurd, cannot make logical sense, without an ability for a person to freely make Choices.

You haven't actually clarified the thing that was asked

If your will is not free, then you have no self-control.

If you have no self-control, then you cannot be blamed for what you do.

If you cannot be blamed for what you do, then you have no moral responsibility.


Let me know if you need further simplification...I'll see how much further I can go.

You're clarifying abstractions with more abstractions. My question was specific.

Free from what, or free to what?

From everything, to everything else.

Free from every limitation you've ever imagined (or experienced) in your lifetime.

Free to do everything physically possible, and free to do everything physically impossible. All of it.