Why do innocent people suffer?

[dattaswami]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Suffering above person would have been avoided had they followed justice in this world. If one realize, repent and do not repeat any sins from today till their death then they all will live happily without any suffering or misery.

But still when you see a person is suffering you shall try to help him or her to the extent possible by you.

The one and only one way to come out of suffering is to realize, repent and stop doing sins from this moment onwards.

[Iwannaplato]

Are those who do not harm good people and obey justice in this world.

So, it is possible to harm good people? One can be harmed and not have a lesson to learn involved or as punishment.

In this world full free will is given to all the people. When you are walking on the road a theif can come from behind and snatch your purse..It is quite possible...

But if you suffer this, you needed punishment for your past sins. YOu may be a good person in general, but you deserved some kind of punishment, here around money

[iambiguous]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Why to blame God for this. The fate of each person is decided by his own actions only. But when you see a suffering person you shall help him without pondering over the past sins etc. Even then if that person suffer then it is his or her fate. But you shall always help such suffering person to the maximum possible extent.


The tsunami is always due to anger of God since you are killing the living beings present in water for food. The earthquakes are due to killing of living beings that exist on the earth. God in the form of Buddha and Mahavir preached the non-violence and severely opposed the killing of living beings.

God in some other human forms might have followed the practice of non-vegetarian food in order to join with non-vegetarian people so that, certain other higher aspects to be preached might have been taken into consideration. That does not mean that God has encouraged the killing of living beings through non-vegetarian food. He might have kept silent on this issue in order to give importance to other serious issues. God follows the ignorance of the students in order to become friendly with them. To control a running bull, you have to run along with it for some distance before controlling it.

All these are the basic concepts of nivrutti, which are the core of pravrutti. By following the ethics of pravrutti, you will avoid God becoming furious with you. Then, through nivrutti, you can please God. On one hand, you are making God furious by not following the ethics of pravrutti and how can you please God through nivrutti simultaneously?




The sea with its wave-hands is always warning the people not to kill the poor harmless acquatic creatures like fish etc., for the sake of food. God created lot of vegetable food, which is the best even according to present science of health. The sea represents the Lord and finally kills the sinners with his own wave-hands. Goddess earth kills the sinners through quakes since these sinners kill the innocent creatures on the earth. Tsunami is the result of combined anger of father-sea and mother-earth.

These innocent creatures have no advocate and even cannot file a criminal case in our courts. Such formalities are not necessary for His all-pervading court. One sees the punishment only and not the sin, which is the cause. One sympathizes the human beings affected in other countries also since all human beings are one. But one should broaden his mind and should feel that all the living beings are one and sympathize every living being. The natural calamities will then disappear.

For me, with those True Believers like you, it's not what they believe here, it's how they came about believing it...existentially. Were they indoctrinated as a child to believe it? Was there a particular epiphanic experience they had that first brought this particular One True Path to their attention?

And it's not that that believe it either. After all, sans God, how would they sustain the comfort and the consolation they need in order to endure a world bursting at the seams with such terrible, terrible, terrible human suffering?

Of course, the thing is you in particular are just one of many, many others -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- on their own One True Path. And that's just on this planet.

They will have their own "Scripted" rationalizations for human suffering, of course. And many of them will insist that unless you abandon your own One True Path here and accept theirs, there will indeed be dire consequences for you "then and there".

Unless, perhaps, with you, it's a "condition"?

Just out of curiosity, for many who believe in God, it revolves around a "leap of faith". Kierkegaardian or otherwise. They acknowledge they have no capacity to demonstrate the existence of a God, the God...let alone their god. It is all derived instead from the mystery of spiritual faith itself. It's just there for them.

Others, however, go farther. They insist that God does in fact exist. And that they can actually demonstrate this.

Which one are you?

[iambiguous]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Suffering above person would have been avoided had they followed justice in this world. If one realize, repent and do not repeat any sins from today till their death then they all will live happily without any suffering or misery.

But still when you see a person is suffering you shall try to help him or her to the extent possible by you.

The one and only one way to come out of suffering is to realize, repent and stop doing sins from this moment onwards.

I can only marvel at how some are actually able to convince themselves of things like this. How can it not be a manifestation of the "psychology of objectivism": https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

As though mere mortals themselves are behind all human suffering. Mere mortals constructed planet Earth, mere mortals created the bacteria and viruses, mere mortals are responsible for all the myriad physical and mental afflictions, mere mortals are to blame for the extinction events that wipe out countless species.

God created planet Earth. Planet Earth is awash in natural disasters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll

What the lawyers call "acts of God".

But we are responsible for helping the victims?

How is that reasonable? If God caused these natural disasters why on earth would He then want us aid the victims? There wouldn't be victims except that He brought it about in the first place.

[Lacewing]

The one and only one way to come out of suffering is to realize, repent and stop doing sins from this moment onwards.

From another perspective (with points you don't seem to consider)... this claim you make above is full of falseness.

There is not 'one and only way to come out of suffering' -- it can be accomplished through many different methodologies and understandings. There are countless people who do not share your perspective and they do not live in suffering. What are the implications of that?

The concept of 'sin' is a theist fabrication applied to humankind that theism aims to control. Again, countless 'divinely-inspired' people do not agree with your perspective. What does that suggest?

Human beings are capable of a wide range of behaviors and intentions from the worst to the best. It has nothing to do with a branding of 'sin' that is applied (by some) to newborn babies or anyone else who does not share a particular theist belief. How does 'sin' make sense except as a theist 'tool'? Might the divine in all be to a greater degree than theists can imagine?

There are many reasons why people suffer, and many situations are through no fault of their own. It is, both, a vicious world and a glorious world to traverse: everything divine-creation might manifest for growth/expansion/awareness. Maybe on some level -- a 'higher level of being' perhaps -- each person may have agreed to take on or manifest the life and drama they experience here in the physical world, individually or collectively, for value beyond our current human comprehension. Far from being a sinner, each are a creative extension of 'the one' that flows/exists through all things. Why would this be less reasonable to consider when compared with the wide-ranging theists beliefs of male-dominated hierarchy?

Lastly... time is an illusion. There is no 'onward' from this moment... there is always only the present moment. Why would the divine have a timeline?

[Age]

Define 'innocent people'?

Are those who do not harm good people and obey justice in this world.

Define 'good people'?

And are you AWARE that what is 'justice' in one country or culture is NOT 'justice' in ANOTHER country or culture?

If you are NOT, then NOW you ARE, right?

[Iwannaplato]

There is not 'one and only way to come out of suffering'

For Dattaswami there is but one way. Because there can only be one cause: being immoral. If you are immoral, you will be punished in some way and suffer. (or God is a sadist). That is the trap his mind is in and which is then sold as a spirituality, a part of it. So, the way out of suffering is to be good and follow whatever meditative practices Datta Swami will recommend.

There are many reasons why people suffer, and many situations are through no fault of their own. It is, both, a vicious world and a glorious world to traverse: everything divine-creation might manifest for growth/expansion/awareness. Maybe on some level -- a 'higher level of being' perhaps -- each person may have agreed to take on or manifest the life and drama they experience here in the physical world, individually or collectively, for value beyond our current human comprehension. Far from being a sinner, each are a creative extension of 'the one' that flows/exists through all things. Why would this be less reasonable to consider when compared with the wide-ranging theists beliefs of male-dominated hierarchy?

And women are valued less. They are lower down in the hierarchy of spiritual symbols. They are connected to emotions and Hinduism has always judged emotions, some more than others, but in general you need to keep them unexpressed tamped down.

[Age]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...

So-called 'suffering' is VERY RELATIVE.

Take away so-called 'owned property' and just about ALL of the 'suffering' is gone with these things.

And, if ANY one EXPECTS that 'lives' are NOT going to end, or be harmed or damaged by the physical Universe in some way, then they are DELUDED, and which is EXACTLY WHERE ANY 'suffering' comes from, in relation to the above.

Now, in regards to the below;

"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

ALL of this is CAUSED by or could be PREVENTED by 'you', adult human beings, ALONE.

But YOUR LOVE OF MONEY, and OF OBTAINING MORE MONEY CAUSES these things TO PREVAIL.

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

BECAUSE of WHO God IS EXACTLY. That IS WHY.

One can NOT, logically, DISBELIEVE 'IN' some 'thing' that EXISTS, IRREFUTABLY.

God does NOT cause 'suffering'.

'you', human beings, are CREATED, or EVOLVED INTO BEING, with 'thoughts' and 'thinking'. If those thoughts to CHOOSE to feel 'suffering' or NOT is YOUR CHOICE, ALONE.

Are children born 'suffering' if there are arms or legs missing from the body at birth?

YET, how many so-called 'adults' 'suffer' if they just lose an arm or leg from the body because of some Truly NATURALLY occurring event, which you listed above here?

Children do NOT 'suffer' because of NON adult human events, YET 'you', adult human beings DO.

And, children do NOT appear to 'suffer' AS MUCH as 'you', adult human beings, DO, from human being CAUSED and CREATED events. YET it IS children who do have the 'Right' to 'suffer', whereas 'you', adult human beings, have NO 'Right' AT ALL to so-call 'suffer'.

Also, and by the way, ALL ACTUAL 'suffering' is CAUSED FROM adult human beings Wrong DOING.

And, I say, 'ACTUAL 'suffering' BECAUSE 'you' adult human beings, LIKE TO APPEAR to be 'suffering' sometimes when there is NO ACTUAL REAL REASON TO.

For ANY FURTHER CLARIFICATION and/or ELABORATION, then ALL questions and challenges are WELCOME.

[Age]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Why to blame God for this. The fate of each person is decided by his own actions only. But when you see a suffering person you shall help him without pondering over the past sins etc. Even then if that person suffer then it is his or her fate. But you shall always help such suffering person to the maximum possible extent.


The tsunami is always due to anger of God since you are killing the living beings present in water for food. The earthquakes are due to killing of living beings that exist on the earth. God in the form of Buddha and Mahavir preached the non-violence and severely opposed the killing of living beings.

God in some other human forms might have followed the practice of non-vegetarian food in order to join with non-vegetarian people so that, certain other higher aspects to be preached might have been taken into consideration. That does not mean that God has encouraged the killing of living beings through non-vegetarian food. He might have kept silent on this issue in order to give importance to other serious issues. God follows the ignorance of the students in order to become friendly with them. To control a running bull, you have to run along with it for some distance before controlling it.

All these are the basic concepts of nivrutti, which are the core of pravrutti. By following the ethics of pravrutti, you will avoid God becoming furious with you. Then, through nivrutti, you can please God. On one hand, you are making God furious by not following the ethics of pravrutti and how can you please God through nivrutti simultaneously?




The sea with its wave-hands is always warning the people not to kill the poor harmless acquatic creatures like fish etc., for the sake of food. God created lot of vegetable food, which is the best even according to present science of health. The sea represents the Lord and finally kills the sinners with his own wave-hands. Goddess earth kills the sinners through quakes since these sinners kill the innocent creatures on the earth. Tsunami is the result of combined anger of father-sea and mother-earth.

These innocent creatures have no advocate and even cannot file a criminal case in our courts. Such formalities are not necessary for His all-pervading court. One sees the punishment only and not the sin, which is the cause. One sympathizes the human beings affected in other countries also since all human beings are one. But one should broaden his mind and should feel that all the living beings are one and sympathize every living being. The natural calamities will then disappear.

"dattaswami" just so you are CLEAR, I VERY RARELY get past a sentence or few of yours before I am TURNED OFF due to there being so MUCH CONTRADICTION, INCONSISTENCY, ILLOGICALITY, or just TOO MUCH PLAIN ABSURDNESS in it to continue.

The POINT/S "iwannaplato" are POINTING OUT and SHOWING here are IRREFUTABLE.

And, 'you' being UNABLE to ANSWER "iwannaplato's" QUESTIONS in a Truly LOGICAL WAY is just PROVING how False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect YOUR BELIEFS and CLAIMS are here.

Although there EXISTS an ULTIMATE and IRREFUTABLE Truth BEHIND what you are SAYING and CLAIMING here, the way you are presenting your OWN individual VIEWS and BELIEFS is just DISTORTING THIS Truth.

[Age]

Are those who do not harm good people and obey justice in this world.

So, it is possible to harm good people? One can be harmed and not have a lesson to learn involved or as punishment.

In this world full free will is given to all the people. When you are walking on the road a theif can come from behind and snatch your purse..It is quite possible...

AND, according to YOUR so-called "logic" "dattaswami", the human being who had their pursed snatched MUST OF BEEN a so-called 'bad person' from 'sins' committed in some so-called 'previous life', correct?

If no, then WHY NOT, now?

This has been what you have BEEN CLAIMING, up to 'now'.

[Age]

Are those who do not harm good people and obey justice in this world.

So, it is possible to harm good people? One can be harmed and not have a lesson to learn involved or as punishment.

In this world rarely people exists without any sins. Hence there is any true good person, who is devoid of suffering....If one become liberated soul such a person is untouched by the world and worldly relations due to extreme attachment to God.

BUT HOW could ANY one BECOME LIBERATED IF they are to be PUNISHED from PAST 'sins'?

Your WHOLE DISTORTED VIEW and BELIEF here WILL NEVER WORK. It is just Truly ILLOGICAL, ABSURD, and UNSOUND.

And, ALL of YOUR so-called 'gurus' or whatever ELSE you want to call and label those "OTHER" human beings are just MAKING 'things' WORSE through and from their VERY OWN, individual and personal, ILLOGICAL, ABSURD, and UNSOUND VIEWS and BELIEFS.

In other words, if ANY one's VIEWS do NOT FIT IN PERFECTLY with absolutely EVERY one "ELSES", then they ARE False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect.

[Age]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Suffering above person would have been avoided had they followed justice in this world.

So, IF I stop at a red traffic light and/or help the older lady cross the road, then I will NEVER be hit by any tidal wave NOR any volcano, correct?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Also, for HOW LONG does one HAVE TO follow so-called 'justice' in this world BEFORE they are killed or damaged by a NON human being NATURAL event?

Or, can ANY brand new born human being be KILLED or HARMED by a NON human being NATURAL event? Or, is it ONLY the ones that have so-called 'sinned' in so-called 'previous lives' WHERE and WHEN the brand new born human beings who are KILLED or MAIMED because of one of the MANY NON human being NATURAL events?

By the way HOW are you DEFINING the 'justice' word here?

If one realize, repent and do not repeat any sins from today till their death then they all will live happily without any suffering or misery.

"till their death" LOL, LOL, LOL.

So, if one realizes, repents, and does NOT repeat ANY 'sins' from today they will NOT 'die', until they do, and when they 'die' this is BECAUSE they committed some so-called 'sin', correct? '

If yes, then this would MEAN that BECAUSE EVERY human being 'dies', then they MUST OF ALL committed at least one of the 'six vices', which you INDIVIDUALLY BELIEVE, and so this would mean that they are ALL so-called 'bad people', and so WHEN they 'come back' in their NEXT 'lives' they are ALL 'bad people' are GOING TO GET what they ALL DESERVE, that is to be HARMED, DAMAGED, MAIMED, RAPED, STOLEN FROM, ABUSED, PUNISHED, AS WELL AS KILLED, correct?

If no, then WHY NOT? This is what you have been SAYING and CLAIMING, SO FAR.

But still when you see a person is suffering you shall try to help him or her to the extent possible by you.

So, IF I see a person who just RAPED and KILLED some one else, but then who fell over and 'hurt their knee', then I SHALL try to help that one to the extent possibly, by me, correct?

If no, then WHY NOT? You just TOLD me that this is what I SHALL DO.

The one and only one way to come out of suffering is to realize, repent and stop doing sins from this moment onwards.

you are AWARE that you have PREVIOUSLY STATED and CLAIMED that AVOIDING ANY of YOUR OWN 'six vices' was 'sinning', right?

[Age]

Just for the record, let's get back to the manner in which human beings do suffer day in and day out:

...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...



"Each day, 25,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, die from hunger and related causes. Some 854 million people worldwide are estimated to be undernourished, and high food prices may drive another 100 million into poverty and hunger." United Nations

Believe in God? Believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God?

Why?

Why to blame God for this. The fate of each person is decided by his own actions only. But when you see a suffering person you shall help him without pondering over the past sins etc. Even then if that person suffer then it is his or her fate. But you shall always help such suffering person to the maximum possible extent.


The tsunami is always due to anger of God since you are killing the living beings present in water for food. The earthquakes are due to killing of living beings that exist on the earth. God in the form of Buddha and Mahavir preached the non-violence and severely opposed the killing of living beings.

God in some other human forms might have followed the practice of non-vegetarian food in order to join with non-vegetarian people so that, certain other higher aspects to be preached might have been taken into consideration. That does not mean that God has encouraged the killing of living beings through non-vegetarian food. He might have kept silent on this issue in order to give importance to other serious issues. God follows the ignorance of the students in order to become friendly with them. To control a running bull, you have to run along with it for some distance before controlling it.

All these are the basic concepts of nivrutti, which are the core of pravrutti. By following the ethics of pravrutti, you will avoid God becoming furious with you. Then, through nivrutti, you can please God. On one hand, you are making God furious by not following the ethics of pravrutti and how can you please God through nivrutti simultaneously?




The sea with its wave-hands is always warning the people not to kill the poor harmless acquatic creatures like fish etc., for the sake of food. God created lot of vegetable food, which is the best even according to present science of health. The sea represents the Lord and finally kills the sinners with his own wave-hands. Goddess earth kills the sinners through quakes since these sinners kill the innocent creatures on the earth. Tsunami is the result of combined anger of father-sea and mother-earth.

These innocent creatures have no advocate and even cannot file a criminal case in our courts. Such formalities are not necessary for His all-pervading court. One sees the punishment only and not the sin, which is the cause. One sympathizes the human beings affected in other countries also since all human beings are one. But one should broaden his mind and should feel that all the living beings are one and sympathize every living being. The natural calamities will then disappear.

For me, with those True Believers like you, it's not what they believe here, it's how they came about believing it...existentially. Were they indoctrinated as a child to believe it? Was there a particular epiphanic experience they had that first brought this particular One True Path to their attention?

And it's not that that believe it either. After all, sans God, how would they sustain the comfort and the consolation they need in order to endure a world bursting at the seams with such terrible, terrible, terrible human suffering?

Of course, the thing is you in particular are just one of many, many others -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- on their own One True Path. And that's just on this planet.

They will have their own "Scripted" rationalizations for human suffering, of course. And many of them will insist that unless you abandon your own One True Path here and accept theirs, there will indeed be dire consequences for you "then and there".

Unless, perhaps, with you, it's a "condition"?

Just out of curiosity, for many who believe in God, it revolves around a "leap of faith". Kierkegaardian or otherwise. They acknowledge they have no capacity to demonstrate the existence of a God, the God...let alone their god. It is all derived instead from the mystery of spiritual faith itself. It's just there for them.

Others, however, go farther. They insist that God does in fact exist. And that they can actually demonstrate this.

Which one are you?

Demonstrating God, and demonstrating that God EXISTS, is about of the most SIMPLEST and EASIEST things to do, that is; to one who is Truly OPEN.

However, to you CLOSED human beings who while either BELIEVING or DISBELIEVING God exists, it is an IMPOSSIBILITY to demonstrate God, and to demonstrate that God EXISTS.

[Age]

The one and only one way to come out of suffering is to realize, repent and stop doing sins from this moment onwards.

From another perspective (with points you don't seem to consider)... this claim you make above is full of falseness.

From the INTERPRETATION that 'you', "lacewing" and "others" have here, that claim is just ABSOLUTELY False, as well as ABSOLUTELY ABSURD.

However, from THEE INTERPRETATION that ACTUALLY WORKS WITH-IN EVERY thing "else", then that claim is ABSOLUTELY True.

But you ALL have your OWN INTERPRETATION of 'things', so 'you' will ALL CARRY ON DISAGREEING and ARGUING here.

There is not 'one and only way to come out of suffering' -- it can be accomplished through many different methodologies and understandings.

But there is REALLY ONLY One True WAY.

But BECAUSE you CONTINUE to BELIEVE otherwise you will NEVER LEARN 'this', and so ALSO NEVER become ANY WISER either.

OBVIOUSLY there are MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, on the SURFACE or SUPERFICIAL LEVEL, but at the MOST FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL WHERE 'suffering', itself, is ACTUALLY REMOVED COMPLETELY there REALLY IS ONLY One True WAY.

There are countless people who do not share your perspective and they do not live in suffering. What are the implications of that?

There are ALSO countless people who do NOT share 'your' perspective, "lacewing". So, what are the implications of 'that'?

The concept of 'sin' is a theist fabrication applied to humankind that theism aims to control.

And the concept that this forum NEEDS a "moderator" like 'you' is a 'self-serving' FABRICATION applied to the members of this forum that 'you', literally, AIM TO CONTROL, for example.

Again, countless 'divinely-inspired' people do not agree with your perspective. What does that suggest?

AGAIN, countless people do NOT agree with your perspective. What does that suggest?

'you', "lacewing", REALLY DO HAVE a ONE-SIDED VIEW and PERSPECTIVE on some 'things'. So, AGAIN, REALLY what does that suggest?

Human beings are capable of a wide range of behaviors and intentions from the worst to the best.

Which some people, like "yourself", USE to 'try to' EXCUSE and/or "justify" the Wrong that 'you' ACTUALLY do DO.

It has nothing to do with a branding of 'sin' that is applied (by some) to newborn babies or anyone else who does not share a particular theist belief.

How does YOUR branding of the 'worst' to the 'best' behavior, which you apply to human beings, who do NOT share your particular BELIEF here.

How does 'sin' make sense except as a theist 'tool'?

How does your 'best/worst' makes sense except as YOUR 'tool' ONLY?

Might the divine in all be to a greater degree than theists can imagine?

Might the divine in ALL be to a greater degree than 'yours' can imagine?

After all 'your' OWN very individual and very personal human being view is VERY NARROWED, SHALLOW, and even CLOSED, in some circumstances.

There are many reasons why people suffer, and many situations are through no fault of their own. It is, both, a vicious world and a glorious world to traverse:

It is ONLY a so-called 'vicious world' to those with the NARROWEST and CLOSED VIEWS or BELIEFS.

everything divine-creation might manifest for growth/expansion/awareness. Maybe on some level -- a 'higher level of being' perhaps -- each person may have agreed to take on or manifest the life and drama they experience here in the physical world, individually or collectively, for value beyond our current human comprehension. Far from being a sinner, each are a creative extension of 'the one' that flows/exists through all things. Why would this be less reasonable to consider when compared with the wide-ranging theists beliefs of male-dominated hierarchy?

WHY? BECAUSE 'it' can 'tried to' be USED as an EXCUSE or a "justification" for NOT seeking CHANGING, for the better. EXACTLY like what 'you' are doing here "lacewing".

Do you NOT find it AMAZING how you do NOT want "others" to do ANY thing BEYOND what you think or BELIEVE is 'right' and 'good', and EXPECT "others" to NOT USE words or phrases that 'you', individually and personally, or collectively do NOT like?

The HYPOCRISY and CONTRADICTION here is BLINDING.

Lastly... time is an illusion. There is no 'onward' from this moment... there is always only the present moment.

Is this an IRREFUTABLE One truth?

Or, could this be COMPLETELY false or wrong?

Why would the divine have a timeline?

WHY would the divine have what you, personally, BELIEVE the divine has?

[iambiguous]

Demonstrating God, and demonstrating that God EXISTS, is about of the most SIMPLEST and EASIEST things to do, that is; to one who is Truly OPEN.

However, to you CLOSED human beings who while either BELIEVING or DISBELIEVING God exists, it is an IMPOSSIBILITY to demonstrate God, and to demonstrate that God EXISTS.

No, seriously.