Hi AS
Good to hear from you. I've kinda laid Goethe to the side for the time being.
Oh, about this :
M: I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
AS: Wow, you're really kind, I usually want blood, sweat, tears...their soul and more.
Yes, blood, sweat,tears and more....can all combine to produce a meal of sorts...I find.
Goethe's Italian Journey
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Well, I hope you can get back to Goethe when I start reading him...I would like to pick your brain. Not many people are so forthright.mhoraine wrote:Hi AS
Good to hear from you. I've kinda laid Goethe to the side for the time being.
Oh, about this :
M: I want the full deal : starter, main course and dessert. { Perhaps even some wine and a red rose}
AS: Wow, you're really kind, I usually want blood, sweat, tears...their soul and more.
Yes, blood, sweat,tears and more....can all combine to produce a meal of sorts...I find.
Just out of curiosity, how many people, places or things have been able to quench your insatiable appetite? I always seem to hunger for more...
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi AS
Yup, sure thing -Goethe and I are only taking it easy until other things calm down a bit.
AS, if you are talking about curiosity, then I hope never to have it quenched....
However, I have an unfortunate tendency to flutter bye-bye. You and others might act as a good anchor in some respects....with your deeper questions and unfailing interest.
I have so many back burners burning I will soon be accused of being an unfriendly green - that would never do.
M.
Yup, sure thing -Goethe and I are only taking it easy until other things calm down a bit.
AS, if you are talking about curiosity, then I hope never to have it quenched....
However, I have an unfortunate tendency to flutter bye-bye. You and others might act as a good anchor in some respects....with your deeper questions and unfailing interest.
I have so many back burners burning I will soon be accused of being an unfriendly green - that would never do.
M.
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M,
Okay, so Goethe arrived yesterday and I took a moment to read the first chapter. I loved the feeling from the very first paragraph when he describes the beginning of his journey almost as if he was sneaking out of the house to rendezvous with a secret lover.
"I slipped out of Carlsbad at three in the morning; otherwise, I would not have been allowed to leave. Perhaps my friends, who had so kindly celebrated my birthday on 28 August, had thereby acquired the right to detain me, but I could wait no longer."
The naughtiness and excitement of such selfishness heightens the pleasure of hedonistic desire, doncha think? But here, the little pang of guilt he feels for stealing himself away from his friends is nothing compared to the overall intimacy he is about to share with his readers for all time. It's hard to imagine being so talented as to be able to write 2 little sentences that say so much. I'm kinda hating him....lol.
Okay, so Goethe arrived yesterday and I took a moment to read the first chapter. I loved the feeling from the very first paragraph when he describes the beginning of his journey almost as if he was sneaking out of the house to rendezvous with a secret lover.
"I slipped out of Carlsbad at three in the morning; otherwise, I would not have been allowed to leave. Perhaps my friends, who had so kindly celebrated my birthday on 28 August, had thereby acquired the right to detain me, but I could wait no longer."
The naughtiness and excitement of such selfishness heightens the pleasure of hedonistic desire, doncha think? But here, the little pang of guilt he feels for stealing himself away from his friends is nothing compared to the overall intimacy he is about to share with his readers for all time. It's hard to imagine being so talented as to be able to write 2 little sentences that say so much. I'm kinda hating him....lol.
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi AS
So glad to be able to share thoughts about Goethe and his journey.
Interesting your take on the first two sentences - perhaps mine would have been similar if I had not first read the Introduction. Strange how I used to ignore Intros as boring - until the Marcus Intro which fascinated me and gave me some background.
Now, I am left wondering whether I should have been swayed by the Intro, someone else's impressions of Goethe....
or simply jumped in....
Yes, the act was a selfish one - I reckon a case of self-preservation - an escape from the prison of the known and stale.
To breathe the fresh air of the future :
' After such a wretched summer, I look forward to enjoying a fine autumn.....'
So glad to be able to share thoughts about Goethe and his journey.
Interesting your take on the first two sentences - perhaps mine would have been similar if I had not first read the Introduction. Strange how I used to ignore Intros as boring - until the Marcus Intro which fascinated me and gave me some background.
Now, I am left wondering whether I should have been swayed by the Intro, someone else's impressions of Goethe....
or simply jumped in....
Yes, the act was a selfish one - I reckon a case of self-preservation - an escape from the prison of the known and stale.
To breathe the fresh air of the future :
' After such a wretched summer, I look forward to enjoying a fine autumn.....'
-
artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
LOL Now I am left wondering if I should have read the Intro! After the make-you-wanna-kill-yourself horror of Alastair Hannay's Intro into Fear and Trembling, I don't think I could bring myself to endure such torture again! But it is probably best if I did.....ugh!mhoraine wrote: Now, I am left wondering whether I should have been swayed by the Intro, someone else's impressions of Goethe....
or simply jumped in....
[/i]
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M,
I have so many things to say to you and so little time! I hate that!. Thank you for making me curious about the way you see things. I am so grateful. I would have never read this book much less the intro if it weren't for you! Guess what?! This intro wasn't bad at all... in fact I found it quite pleasant to read! I was so surprised!
I have been reading very slowly because I want to absorb things. I have been tempted to tell you my impressions along the way but I waited because I wanted to wait for a more powerful one.
Let me start with the ones that were just nice first, and the ones I did not understand which maybe you could help me with.
1. I adored the way he talked about the amphitheater in the chapter from verona to venice. I liked that he tallked about the crater vs. barrels and such in order to see. But this visual about the crowds blew me away:
"Now this many-headed, many-minded, fickle, blundering monster suddenly sees itself united as one noble assembly, welded into one mass, a single body animated by a single spirit.The simplicity of the oval is felt by everyone to be the most pleasing shape to the eye, and each head serves as a measure for the tremendous scale of the whole. But when the building is empty, there is no standard by which to judge if it is great or small."
To me, this is what I appreciate about people who are intelligent enough to verbalize a thought so beautifully. To talk about a structure in such a way that it has life. And to point out the contrast between a life of meaning and a life of emptiness by describing the emptiness of the structure vs. the structure when it is full to capacity is a great way to describe our existence. A person who is not able to communicate is unlike the person who can communicate well, however just because it is more pleasing to hear the person who communicates well doesn't mean that the person who doesn't communicate well is empty headed or is not important to the "assembly." There is no standard by which to judge if it (he) is great or small.
2. I didn't understand the reference to 'The birds.' I know it was a comedy he wrote but I don't know what it implies. Are 'the birds' the masses? So when he keeps referring to the birds I just replaced that phrase with 'the people' because I wasn't sure of what to do with it. Can you help please?
3. My Ultra fav so far...and this is why I had to stop long enough to write this post is all of page 64! I love the way he describes Palladio. He says:
"How hard he worked at that, how the tangible presence of his creations makes us forget that we are being hypnotized! There is something divine about his talent something comparable to the power of the great poet who, out of the worlds of truth and falsehood, creates a third whose borrowed existence enchants us."
What a beautiful way to describe manipulation. I have had arguments about the word manipulation so many times in this forum I am beginning to sound like a broken record. And as much as people would disagree with me about that term being applied to them I can't help to wonder if they then would also disagree with the Shakespeare, when he wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (or something to that affect) For that is the same value as my sentiment that the word 'manipulation' is just another word for the beauty of using words wisely and effectively to artfully 'hypnotize' another person's senses. I use the word 'manipulate' to make a point about our perception of what is good and bad. And usually it is to connect bad words to other people and good words to ourselves. But Goethe cuts through this ruse to boldly say this:
"One gets small thanks from people when one tries to improve their moral values, to give them a higher conception of themselves and a sense of the truly noble. But if one flatters the 'birds' with lies, tells them fairy tales, caters daily to their weaknesses, then one is their man."
And then, Boldly cuts through that ruse to apply it to himself in a most honest and forthcoming way. He owns it like a noble person:
"But I must control my feelings because here, as elsewhere, I so often come upon what I seek and what I shun side by side."
Wow! Here is complaining about the nature of man and then admitting he is vulnerable to the same emotions. That awareness is so humbling and beautiful at it's core, it's amazing. Doncha think? I want to write so much more on the subject but time is not on my side today. Just a few thoughts to let you know I haven't abandoned you or this thread!
I have so many things to say to you and so little time! I hate that!. Thank you for making me curious about the way you see things. I am so grateful. I would have never read this book much less the intro if it weren't for you! Guess what?! This intro wasn't bad at all... in fact I found it quite pleasant to read! I was so surprised!
I have been reading very slowly because I want to absorb things. I have been tempted to tell you my impressions along the way but I waited because I wanted to wait for a more powerful one.
Let me start with the ones that were just nice first, and the ones I did not understand which maybe you could help me with.
1. I adored the way he talked about the amphitheater in the chapter from verona to venice. I liked that he tallked about the crater vs. barrels and such in order to see. But this visual about the crowds blew me away:
"Now this many-headed, many-minded, fickle, blundering monster suddenly sees itself united as one noble assembly, welded into one mass, a single body animated by a single spirit.The simplicity of the oval is felt by everyone to be the most pleasing shape to the eye, and each head serves as a measure for the tremendous scale of the whole. But when the building is empty, there is no standard by which to judge if it is great or small."
To me, this is what I appreciate about people who are intelligent enough to verbalize a thought so beautifully. To talk about a structure in such a way that it has life. And to point out the contrast between a life of meaning and a life of emptiness by describing the emptiness of the structure vs. the structure when it is full to capacity is a great way to describe our existence. A person who is not able to communicate is unlike the person who can communicate well, however just because it is more pleasing to hear the person who communicates well doesn't mean that the person who doesn't communicate well is empty headed or is not important to the "assembly." There is no standard by which to judge if it (he) is great or small.
2. I didn't understand the reference to 'The birds.' I know it was a comedy he wrote but I don't know what it implies. Are 'the birds' the masses? So when he keeps referring to the birds I just replaced that phrase with 'the people' because I wasn't sure of what to do with it. Can you help please?
3. My Ultra fav so far...and this is why I had to stop long enough to write this post is all of page 64! I love the way he describes Palladio. He says:
"How hard he worked at that, how the tangible presence of his creations makes us forget that we are being hypnotized! There is something divine about his talent something comparable to the power of the great poet who, out of the worlds of truth and falsehood, creates a third whose borrowed existence enchants us."
What a beautiful way to describe manipulation. I have had arguments about the word manipulation so many times in this forum I am beginning to sound like a broken record. And as much as people would disagree with me about that term being applied to them I can't help to wonder if they then would also disagree with the Shakespeare, when he wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (or something to that affect) For that is the same value as my sentiment that the word 'manipulation' is just another word for the beauty of using words wisely and effectively to artfully 'hypnotize' another person's senses. I use the word 'manipulate' to make a point about our perception of what is good and bad. And usually it is to connect bad words to other people and good words to ourselves. But Goethe cuts through this ruse to boldly say this:
"One gets small thanks from people when one tries to improve their moral values, to give them a higher conception of themselves and a sense of the truly noble. But if one flatters the 'birds' with lies, tells them fairy tales, caters daily to their weaknesses, then one is their man."
And then, Boldly cuts through that ruse to apply it to himself in a most honest and forthcoming way. He owns it like a noble person:
"But I must control my feelings because here, as elsewhere, I so often come upon what I seek and what I shun side by side."
Wow! Here is complaining about the nature of man and then admitting he is vulnerable to the same emotions. That awareness is so humbling and beautiful at it's core, it's amazing. Doncha think? I want to write so much more on the subject but time is not on my side today. Just a few thoughts to let you know I haven't abandoned you or this thread!
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi AS
This will be a bit of a quickie - but, like you, I have more than enough thoughts to be going on with ! I am so glad that you are enjoying Goethe's travels and observations.
AS : This intro wasn't bad at all... in fact I found it quite pleasant to read! I was so surprised!
M: I now pay attention to the Intros especially those of the translator - it gives me an idea of their hows and why's. Even Afterwords - one written by Mary von Schrader Jarrell re Faust translation by Randall Jarrell -
Why translate ? - Something I've been meaning to do - then, later after countless 'why's' - a look of helpless defiance and a : "Why, for Goethe ! "
An assignment of the soul.
How ? - Randall held that the poet-translator was not an 'able bilingual who could compete with a computer....' The translator must be as one with his poet.
AS : I have been reading very slowly because I want to absorb things. I have been tempted to tell you my impressions along the way but I waited because I wanted to wait for a more powerful one.
M: Unfortunately, I rush my reading, grabbing in all the sensations - and probably missing a lot on the way, you and others might help to 'pause' me !! I agree some are more powerful than others....it kinda reflects his excitement of initial 'finds' and also how he relates with others. Fascinating.
AS :Let me start with the ones that were just nice first, and the ones I did not understand which maybe you could help me with.
M: Carry on !!
1. I adored the way he talked about the amphitheater in the chapter from verona to venice. I liked that he tallked about the crater vs. barrels and such in order to see. But this visual about the crowds blew me away:
"Now this many-headed, many-minded, fickle, blundering monster suddenly sees itself united as one noble assembly, welded into one mass, a single body animated by a single spirit.The simplicity of the oval is felt by everyone to be the most pleasing shape to the eye, and each head serves as a measure for the tremendous scale of the whole. But when the building is empty, there is no standard by which to judge if it is great or small."
To me, this is what I appreciate about people who are intelligent enough to verbalize a thought so beautifully. To talk about a structure in such a way that it has life. And to point out the contrast between a life of meaning and a life of emptiness by describing the emptiness of the structure vs. the structure when it is full to capacity is a great way to describe our existence. A person who is not able to communicate is unlike the person who can communicate well, however just because it is more pleasing to hear the person who communicates well doesn't mean that the person who doesn't communicate well is empty headed or is not important to the "assembly." There is no standard by which to judge if it (he) is great or small.
M: I loved that too - it clicked with me, I was reading it as the same time as I read words, here, on the Borg and Consciousness. I thought of the Circle.
AS : 2. I didn't understand the reference to 'The birds.' I know it was a comedy he wrote but I don't know what it implies. Are 'the birds' the masses? So when he keeps referring to the birds I just replaced that phrase with 'the people' because I wasn't sure of what to do with it. Can you help please?
M: I would love it if someone would help with this. However, I think you are correct. Did you not adore the Malcesine spy scene - p45 where he was explaining his fascination with the beautiful scene to the 'wrybirds '. The ruined fortress he had been sketching - was lit up by the morning sun - and the crowd tried to turn round to see this and also keep their eyes on the orator. Goethe makes me smile, and yet, there is a hint of superiority ? ( probabyl well-earned, but still....)
AS: 3. My Ultra fav so far...and this is why I had to stop long enough to write this post is all of page 64! I love the way he describes Palladio. He says:
"How hard he worked at that, how the tangible presence of his creations makes us forget that we are being hypnotized! There is something divine about his talent something comparable to the power of the great poet who, out of the worlds of truth and falsehood, creates a third whose borrowed existence enchants us."
What a beautiful way to describe manipulation. I have had arguments about the word manipulation so many times in this forum I am beginning to sound like a broken record. And as much as people would disagree with me about that term being applied to them I can't help to wonder if they then would also disagree with the Shakespeare, when he wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (or something to that affect) For that is the same value as my sentiment that the word 'manipulation' is just another word for the beauty of using words wisely and effectively to artfully 'hypnotize' another person's senses. I use the word 'manipulate' to make a point about our perception of what is good and bad. And usually it is to connect bad words to other people and good words to ourselves. But Goethe cuts through this ruse to boldly say this:
"One gets small thanks from people when one tries to improve their moral values, to give them a higher conception of themselves and a sense of the truly noble. But if one flatters the 'birds' with lies, tells them fairy tales, caters daily to their weaknesses, then one is their man."
And then, Boldly cuts through that ruse to apply it to himself in a most honest and forthcoming way. He owns it like a noble person:
"But I must control my feelings because here, as elsewhere, I so often come upon what I seek and what I shun side by side."
Wow! Here is complaining about the nature of man and then admitting he is vulnerable to the same emotions. That awareness is so humbling and beautiful at it's core, it's amazing. Doncha think? I want to write so much more on the subject but time is not on my side today. Just a few thoughts to let you know I haven't abandoned you or this thread!
M: I think that Goethe is quite amazing, as are you with your wonderful descriptions and strong and sensitive thinking.
Don't worry about the speed of response - you, like Goethe, have many and varied interests.
I can't begin to understand how he accomplished all that he did....
Sorry, I couldn't bear to cut out all that you had written, but I really should get to grips with the quote feature !!
This will be a bit of a quickie - but, like you, I have more than enough thoughts to be going on with ! I am so glad that you are enjoying Goethe's travels and observations.
AS : This intro wasn't bad at all... in fact I found it quite pleasant to read! I was so surprised!
M: I now pay attention to the Intros especially those of the translator - it gives me an idea of their hows and why's. Even Afterwords - one written by Mary von Schrader Jarrell re Faust translation by Randall Jarrell -
Why translate ? - Something I've been meaning to do - then, later after countless 'why's' - a look of helpless defiance and a : "Why, for Goethe ! "
An assignment of the soul.
How ? - Randall held that the poet-translator was not an 'able bilingual who could compete with a computer....' The translator must be as one with his poet.
AS : I have been reading very slowly because I want to absorb things. I have been tempted to tell you my impressions along the way but I waited because I wanted to wait for a more powerful one.
M: Unfortunately, I rush my reading, grabbing in all the sensations - and probably missing a lot on the way, you and others might help to 'pause' me !! I agree some are more powerful than others....it kinda reflects his excitement of initial 'finds' and also how he relates with others. Fascinating.
AS :Let me start with the ones that were just nice first, and the ones I did not understand which maybe you could help me with.
M: Carry on !!
1. I adored the way he talked about the amphitheater in the chapter from verona to venice. I liked that he tallked about the crater vs. barrels and such in order to see. But this visual about the crowds blew me away:
"Now this many-headed, many-minded, fickle, blundering monster suddenly sees itself united as one noble assembly, welded into one mass, a single body animated by a single spirit.The simplicity of the oval is felt by everyone to be the most pleasing shape to the eye, and each head serves as a measure for the tremendous scale of the whole. But when the building is empty, there is no standard by which to judge if it is great or small."
To me, this is what I appreciate about people who are intelligent enough to verbalize a thought so beautifully. To talk about a structure in such a way that it has life. And to point out the contrast between a life of meaning and a life of emptiness by describing the emptiness of the structure vs. the structure when it is full to capacity is a great way to describe our existence. A person who is not able to communicate is unlike the person who can communicate well, however just because it is more pleasing to hear the person who communicates well doesn't mean that the person who doesn't communicate well is empty headed or is not important to the "assembly." There is no standard by which to judge if it (he) is great or small.
M: I loved that too - it clicked with me, I was reading it as the same time as I read words, here, on the Borg and Consciousness. I thought of the Circle.
AS : 2. I didn't understand the reference to 'The birds.' I know it was a comedy he wrote but I don't know what it implies. Are 'the birds' the masses? So when he keeps referring to the birds I just replaced that phrase with 'the people' because I wasn't sure of what to do with it. Can you help please?
M: I would love it if someone would help with this. However, I think you are correct. Did you not adore the Malcesine spy scene - p45 where he was explaining his fascination with the beautiful scene to the 'wrybirds '. The ruined fortress he had been sketching - was lit up by the morning sun - and the crowd tried to turn round to see this and also keep their eyes on the orator. Goethe makes me smile, and yet, there is a hint of superiority ? ( probabyl well-earned, but still....)
AS: 3. My Ultra fav so far...and this is why I had to stop long enough to write this post is all of page 64! I love the way he describes Palladio. He says:
"How hard he worked at that, how the tangible presence of his creations makes us forget that we are being hypnotized! There is something divine about his talent something comparable to the power of the great poet who, out of the worlds of truth and falsehood, creates a third whose borrowed existence enchants us."
What a beautiful way to describe manipulation. I have had arguments about the word manipulation so many times in this forum I am beginning to sound like a broken record. And as much as people would disagree with me about that term being applied to them I can't help to wonder if they then would also disagree with the Shakespeare, when he wrote, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." (or something to that affect) For that is the same value as my sentiment that the word 'manipulation' is just another word for the beauty of using words wisely and effectively to artfully 'hypnotize' another person's senses. I use the word 'manipulate' to make a point about our perception of what is good and bad. And usually it is to connect bad words to other people and good words to ourselves. But Goethe cuts through this ruse to boldly say this:
"One gets small thanks from people when one tries to improve their moral values, to give them a higher conception of themselves and a sense of the truly noble. But if one flatters the 'birds' with lies, tells them fairy tales, caters daily to their weaknesses, then one is their man."
And then, Boldly cuts through that ruse to apply it to himself in a most honest and forthcoming way. He owns it like a noble person:
"But I must control my feelings because here, as elsewhere, I so often come upon what I seek and what I shun side by side."
Wow! Here is complaining about the nature of man and then admitting he is vulnerable to the same emotions. That awareness is so humbling and beautiful at it's core, it's amazing. Doncha think? I want to write so much more on the subject but time is not on my side today. Just a few thoughts to let you know I haven't abandoned you or this thread!
M: I think that Goethe is quite amazing, as are you with your wonderful descriptions and strong and sensitive thinking.
Don't worry about the speed of response - you, like Goethe, have many and varied interests.
I can't begin to understand how he accomplished all that he did....
Sorry, I couldn't bear to cut out all that you had written, but I really should get to grips with the quote feature !!
-
artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
M: I would love it if someone would help with this. However, I think you are correct. Did you not adore the Malcesine spy scene - p45 where he was explaining his fascination with the beautiful scene to the 'wrybirds '. The ruined fortress he had been sketching - was lit up by the morning sun - and the crowd tried to turn round to see this and also keep their eyes on the orator. Goethe makes me smile, and yet, there is a hint of superiority ? ( probabyl well-earned, but still....)
AS: I don't know how it happened but I missed that page! What a total delight to have you point it out to me and give me such a wonderful surprise and it was such a coincidence that after reading that...and hearing your words repeat in my head over and over (Superiority...well earned...superiority.... well earned....) I went on to the page where I had left off last time and lo and behold...Goethe answered you immediately as if he knew what you were thinking...I love a man who gives instant gratification! On page 65...the last sentence of his entry on Sept. 20th he writes:
"As a 'Bird' I feel I am a failure."
Wow. Are you fate's/Goethe's favorite or what?
AS: I don't know how it happened but I missed that page! What a total delight to have you point it out to me and give me such a wonderful surprise and it was such a coincidence that after reading that...and hearing your words repeat in my head over and over (Superiority...well earned...superiority.... well earned....) I went on to the page where I had left off last time and lo and behold...Goethe answered you immediately as if he knew what you were thinking...I love a man who gives instant gratification! On page 65...the last sentence of his entry on Sept. 20th he writes:
"As a 'Bird' I feel I am a failure."
Wow. Are you fate's/Goethe's favorite or what?
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
sorry for the delay, AS !
Will talk later
Will talk later
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi, well I've totally lost the plot, where were we ?
AS : What a total delight to have you point it out to me and give me such a wonderful surprise and it was such a coincidence that after reading that...and hearing your words repeat in my head over and over (Superiority...well earned...superiority.... well earned....) I went on to the page where I had left off last time and lo and behold...Goethe answered you immediately as if he knew what you were thinking...I love a man who gives instant gratification! On page 65...the last sentence of his entry on Sept. 20th he writes:
"As a 'Bird' I feel I am a failure."
Wow. Are you fate's/Goethe's favorite or what?
M: OK, well first off I probably woldn't have pointed it out if your comments hadn't led me back to that place in the book ! I'm quite poor at letting others know of my amazement when I'm reading a book. So as to being 'fate's favourite' - I guess you are right up there ? whatever you meant by that ?.....
I've been thinking of the 'well-earned superiority' comment as well.....and the differenece betweeen a 'felt' superiority and someone else conferring it on you - ie placing you on a pedestal ?
Also, the sense of either 1. 'looking down one's nose' at the rest of humanity or 2. the reality that we all have different capacities.
I'm not sure about Goethe's comment as to being a failure as a Bird - it's that subjective/objective thing again, isn't it ?
Or part of a whole, but separate......I'm babbling.....
Still need to know more about Goethe. I've put the Journey to one side for the moment - and, amongst other things, have read ' The sorrows of Young Werther' - now, there's melancholy for ya'....
Too busy learning l'italiano for il mio viaggio a Roma in maggio
Buona giornata !
M
AS : What a total delight to have you point it out to me and give me such a wonderful surprise and it was such a coincidence that after reading that...and hearing your words repeat in my head over and over (Superiority...well earned...superiority.... well earned....) I went on to the page where I had left off last time and lo and behold...Goethe answered you immediately as if he knew what you were thinking...I love a man who gives instant gratification! On page 65...the last sentence of his entry on Sept. 20th he writes:
"As a 'Bird' I feel I am a failure."
Wow. Are you fate's/Goethe's favorite or what?
M: OK, well first off I probably woldn't have pointed it out if your comments hadn't led me back to that place in the book ! I'm quite poor at letting others know of my amazement when I'm reading a book. So as to being 'fate's favourite' - I guess you are right up there ? whatever you meant by that ?.....
I've been thinking of the 'well-earned superiority' comment as well.....and the differenece betweeen a 'felt' superiority and someone else conferring it on you - ie placing you on a pedestal ?
Also, the sense of either 1. 'looking down one's nose' at the rest of humanity or 2. the reality that we all have different capacities.
I'm not sure about Goethe's comment as to being a failure as a Bird - it's that subjective/objective thing again, isn't it ?
Or part of a whole, but separate......I'm babbling.....
Still need to know more about Goethe. I've put the Journey to one side for the moment - and, amongst other things, have read ' The sorrows of Young Werther' - now, there's melancholy for ya'....
Too busy learning l'italiano for il mio viaggio a Roma in maggio
Buona giornata !
M
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M,
M:Hi, well I've totally lost the plot, where were we ?
AS: I was just reading something interesting yesterday but I can't remember what it was......like you I have so many things I am trying to learn at the moment, it's hard to find the time for everything! Don't feel as if you have to reply in a certain amount of time...I understand. I can't wait until your trip...I do hope you'll share...vicarious pleasures you know....Oh yeah...I remember now what it was...You know the part when he meets the pilgrims? And he remarks about how the church does very little for them? It reminded me of when I was waiting in line outside to go into the Vatican. I slipped out of my shoes (I hate shoes) and stood in line barefoot with my friends. A woman came up to me and told me I had better put my shoes on before someone mistook me for a pilgrim. I put my shoes back on out of respect but I remember thinking. "how odd...what's wrong with being a pilgrim?" I don't think I even knew what the term meant except for as is applied to US history. Is this what they mean by pilgrim...Goethe's pilgrims? Wow...it all comes full circle doesn't it? lol Still...my question is the same now as it was then, what's wrong with being a pilgrim? Because some of them faked pilgrim-age? I don't think I am understanding...
M: So as to being 'fate's favourite' - I guess you are right up there ? whatever you meant by that ?.....
AS: Awwww...thanks...that's really sweet. I wish I was fates fav....lol...but I meant it in an ironic/ kidding type of way. I have this girlfriend...we share a special joke between us that the 'fates' hate us...this is apparent to us in how all of our wishes (that we verbalize aloud) never come true. So we have devised a method of tricking fate. For example, if we really want something...like a job...we will tell each other in a loud knowing voice "I really hope I don't get this job...man that would suck!" Then the fates are sure to give us the job...because they hate us...lol. See how the game is played? It doesn't matter if we say fate loves another...because fate likes to see us jealous and will pile good fortune on the other person...just to spite us. However, now that I have told you all this...the fates are wise to our game and I must remember to tell my girlfriend so she doesn't accidentally misspeak and ruin her chances of good fortune or anyone elses good fortune. Damn...now how are we going to trick the fates...great.
Oh BTW...did I happen to mention her and I are narcissists? lol
M:I've been thinking of the 'well-earned superiority' comment as well.....and the differenece betweeen a 'felt' superiority and someone else conferring it on you - ie placing you on a pedestal ?
Also, the sense of either 1. 'looking down one's nose' at the rest of humanity or 2. the reality that we all have different capacities.
I'm not sure about Goethe's comment as to being a failure as a Bird - it's that subjective/objective thing again, isn't it ?
Or part of a whole, but separate......I'm babbling.....
AS: I don't think you were babbling...I was enjoying...
M:Too busy learning l'italiano for il mio viaggio a Roma in maggio
Buona giornata !
AS: Very cool....practice your bedroom eyes too! I really wanna hear some juicy stories from your trip!
M:Hi, well I've totally lost the plot, where were we ?
AS: I was just reading something interesting yesterday but I can't remember what it was......like you I have so many things I am trying to learn at the moment, it's hard to find the time for everything! Don't feel as if you have to reply in a certain amount of time...I understand. I can't wait until your trip...I do hope you'll share...vicarious pleasures you know....Oh yeah...I remember now what it was...You know the part when he meets the pilgrims? And he remarks about how the church does very little for them? It reminded me of when I was waiting in line outside to go into the Vatican. I slipped out of my shoes (I hate shoes) and stood in line barefoot with my friends. A woman came up to me and told me I had better put my shoes on before someone mistook me for a pilgrim. I put my shoes back on out of respect but I remember thinking. "how odd...what's wrong with being a pilgrim?" I don't think I even knew what the term meant except for as is applied to US history. Is this what they mean by pilgrim...Goethe's pilgrims? Wow...it all comes full circle doesn't it? lol Still...my question is the same now as it was then, what's wrong with being a pilgrim? Because some of them faked pilgrim-age? I don't think I am understanding...
M: So as to being 'fate's favourite' - I guess you are right up there ? whatever you meant by that ?.....
AS: Awwww...thanks...that's really sweet. I wish I was fates fav....lol...but I meant it in an ironic/ kidding type of way. I have this girlfriend...we share a special joke between us that the 'fates' hate us...this is apparent to us in how all of our wishes (that we verbalize aloud) never come true. So we have devised a method of tricking fate. For example, if we really want something...like a job...we will tell each other in a loud knowing voice "I really hope I don't get this job...man that would suck!" Then the fates are sure to give us the job...because they hate us...lol. See how the game is played? It doesn't matter if we say fate loves another...because fate likes to see us jealous and will pile good fortune on the other person...just to spite us. However, now that I have told you all this...the fates are wise to our game and I must remember to tell my girlfriend so she doesn't accidentally misspeak and ruin her chances of good fortune or anyone elses good fortune. Damn...now how are we going to trick the fates...great.
Oh BTW...did I happen to mention her and I are narcissists? lolM:I've been thinking of the 'well-earned superiority' comment as well.....and the differenece betweeen a 'felt' superiority and someone else conferring it on you - ie placing you on a pedestal ?
Also, the sense of either 1. 'looking down one's nose' at the rest of humanity or 2. the reality that we all have different capacities.
I'm not sure about Goethe's comment as to being a failure as a Bird - it's that subjective/objective thing again, isn't it ?
Or part of a whole, but separate......I'm babbling.....
AS: I don't think you were babbling...I was enjoying...
M:Too busy learning l'italiano for il mio viaggio a Roma in maggio
Buona giornata !
AS: Very cool....practice your bedroom eyes too! I really wanna hear some juicy stories from your trip!
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi AS
AS: You know the part when he meets the pilgrims? And he remarks about how the church does very little for them?
M: Actually I've forgotten - you stirred a vague memory - if you can point me to page number, or part of the journey...
AS: It reminded me of when I was waiting in line outside to go into the Vatican. I slipped out of my shoes (I hate shoes) and stood in line barefoot with my friends. A woman came up to me and told me I had better put my shoes on before someone mistook me for a pilgrim.
M: I'm not sure what the woman was talking about, but I know there is a very strict dress code - No Shorts ...er.....I mean ...you know what I mean....'decent' covering !
AS: I put my shoes back on out of respect but I remember thinking. "how odd...what's wrong with being a pilgrim?" I don't think I even knew what the term meant except for as is applied to US history. Is this what they mean by pilgrim...Goethe's pilgrims? Wow...it all comes full circle doesn't it? lol Still...my question is the same now as it was then, what's wrong with being a pilgrim? Because some of them faked pilgrim-age? I don't think I am understanding...
M: Oh yes, I remember the part now....nope it's gone....for a moment the image flickered....
This is hopeless. The only way I can really share a book is if someone is with me 'in the moment' ...and then I would probably annoy them and myself by my continual ' listen to this....'
I can only remember one ( real not virtual ) really good book share experience - two different books but with similar ideas, bouncy bounce-bounce - on a verandah under the sun.....
and then there was the time someone read poetry to me as we ambled along. ( thereby fulfilling one of my fantasies ) and that's all you're gonna get AS !
Funny how some things stick in your mind.
I bet that Goethe left a lot out of his travel journal !!
M.
AS: You know the part when he meets the pilgrims? And he remarks about how the church does very little for them?
M: Actually I've forgotten - you stirred a vague memory - if you can point me to page number, or part of the journey...
AS: It reminded me of when I was waiting in line outside to go into the Vatican. I slipped out of my shoes (I hate shoes) and stood in line barefoot with my friends. A woman came up to me and told me I had better put my shoes on before someone mistook me for a pilgrim.
M: I'm not sure what the woman was talking about, but I know there is a very strict dress code - No Shorts ...er.....I mean ...you know what I mean....'decent' covering !
AS: I put my shoes back on out of respect but I remember thinking. "how odd...what's wrong with being a pilgrim?" I don't think I even knew what the term meant except for as is applied to US history. Is this what they mean by pilgrim...Goethe's pilgrims? Wow...it all comes full circle doesn't it? lol Still...my question is the same now as it was then, what's wrong with being a pilgrim? Because some of them faked pilgrim-age? I don't think I am understanding...
M: Oh yes, I remember the part now....nope it's gone....for a moment the image flickered....
This is hopeless. The only way I can really share a book is if someone is with me 'in the moment' ...and then I would probably annoy them and myself by my continual ' listen to this....'
I can only remember one ( real not virtual ) really good book share experience - two different books but with similar ideas, bouncy bounce-bounce - on a verandah under the sun.....
and then there was the time someone read poetry to me as we ambled along. ( thereby fulfilling one of my fantasies ) and that's all you're gonna get AS !
Funny how some things stick in your mind.
I bet that Goethe left a lot out of his travel journal !!
M.
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Hi M,
M: Actually I've forgotten - you stirred a vague memory - if you can point me to page number, or part of the journey...
AS: Page 75, Venice, 28 September 1786
M: I'm not sure what the woman was talking about, but I know there is a very strict dress code - No Shorts ...er.....I mean ...you know what I mean....'decent' covering !
AS: That part I knew...I made sure to dress appropriately...However, waiting in line...in slip on shoes...one can be tempted...and besides...who's going to notice a little thing like shoes...right? lol Of course, I should have known the fates would part the skies and command the sun to highlight my shoe-lessness...I was too comfortable!
M:I bet that Goethe left a lot out of his travel journal !!
AS: I'll bet he did too. Are you going to keep a journal while you are there?
M: Actually I've forgotten - you stirred a vague memory - if you can point me to page number, or part of the journey...
AS: Page 75, Venice, 28 September 1786
M: I'm not sure what the woman was talking about, but I know there is a very strict dress code - No Shorts ...er.....I mean ...you know what I mean....'decent' covering !
AS: That part I knew...I made sure to dress appropriately...However, waiting in line...in slip on shoes...one can be tempted...and besides...who's going to notice a little thing like shoes...right? lol Of course, I should have known the fates would part the skies and command the sun to highlight my shoe-lessness...I was too comfortable!
M:I bet that Goethe left a lot out of his travel journal !!
AS: I'll bet he did too. Are you going to keep a journal while you are there?
Re: Goethe's Italian Journey
Thanks again, AS.
I wondered what you meant earlier when you mentioned ' Goethe's pilgrims' and 'full circle'.
And so, after re-reading the passage in the book, my instinct was to search for Goethe's pilgrims.
I love it when someone connects me with something beautiful and unexpected.
I found Goethe's 'Pilgers Morgenlied' ( Pilgrim's Morning Song ) :
- Morning mists ,mauve, wrap in your turret....right from the beginning you met the timid me with friendliness and all of a sudden threw me into the eternal flames !.....you have poured into my prematurely tired heart renewed will to live ; joy in life and confidence , joy in life and confidence.
The German starts off - ' Morgennebel, Lila, hullen deine Turm sein...'
Lila !!!
'Lila' is the follow-up to Pirsig's ' Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ' - the journey that thrilled me.
More searching....and Pirsig chose the name ( related to ' lilaq ' ) - because the 'unsubtlety of the lilac odour and the hardiness of the bush helped suggest her name to me.
Goethe's poem is also set to music - Strauss for one ' An Lila' .....I'd love to hear it sometime. For now, here is a link to the poem - I love it ! :
http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text ... xtId=24833
AS, I don't know how you do it, but you inspire me
I wondered what you meant earlier when you mentioned ' Goethe's pilgrims' and 'full circle'.
And so, after re-reading the passage in the book, my instinct was to search for Goethe's pilgrims.
I love it when someone connects me with something beautiful and unexpected.
I found Goethe's 'Pilgers Morgenlied' ( Pilgrim's Morning Song ) :
- Morning mists ,mauve, wrap in your turret....right from the beginning you met the timid me with friendliness and all of a sudden threw me into the eternal flames !.....you have poured into my prematurely tired heart renewed will to live ; joy in life and confidence , joy in life and confidence.
The German starts off - ' Morgennebel, Lila, hullen deine Turm sein...'
Lila !!!
'Lila' is the follow-up to Pirsig's ' Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ' - the journey that thrilled me.
More searching....and Pirsig chose the name ( related to ' lilaq ' ) - because the 'unsubtlety of the lilac odour and the hardiness of the bush helped suggest her name to me.
Goethe's poem is also set to music - Strauss for one ' An Lila' .....I'd love to hear it sometime. For now, here is a link to the poem - I love it ! :
http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text ... xtId=24833
AS, I don't know how you do it, but you inspire me