When I look at the world

[Walker]

Really. You need to wake up, pardner.

To what, knowing what? Enlighten me!

- A cult wants as much from you as it can get: body mind and soul. What do you get in return?
- You get promises for the future, and you get the adulation of both the cult and the cultish.
- You must display your Woke Badge for the adulation from the cultish, and to earn it one needs to sing the verse of the cult. The verses are in the oral tradition of yes to this, and no to that.
- Take for instance, the abortion cult.
- From that cult and cultish you get promises that the world inside you will be right again.
- You hear praises of, “You go girl!”
(No one ever said cults aren’t tone deaf.)

- Climate change cult, sex change cult, abortion cult, other cults … they’ve all got their membership rules to earn the Woke Badge. Not belonging to any cults past or present gives rise to the question:

Do they have secret handshakes and gestures?

Feel any lighter?

[Walker]

Before you get too excited, religion is not cult.

[Harbal]

Otherwise, you are defaulting to the utterly absurd notion that it's all the result of the blind and mindless processes of "chance."
_______

Chance is only an element within the process, and not the process itself.

[Peter Kropotkin]

K: I have seen no evidence of any kind that heaven, hell or god exists...
now what?

Indeed, there is no evidence that heaven or hell exists.

AGE: There is NOT just 'evidence', there is ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE 'PROOF' that 'heaven' AND 'hell' do ACTUALLY exist.
The reason WHY some people BELIEVE there is NO evidence AT ALL that 'heaven' and 'hell' exist is because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for the words 'heaven' and 'hell', and more so because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for WHERE 'heaven' AND 'hell' are MEANT TO BE existing.

However, you are literally surrounded in a vast abundance of, at least, "circumstantial" evidence that something "intelligent" is responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe.

K: AND again, there is no evidence that there is a heaven, hell or god.. not to mention
that there isn't even evidence for an "intelligence" that "is responsible for the unfathomable
order of the universe"

AGE: otherwise, you are defaulting to the utterly absurd notion that it's all the result of the blind and mindless processes of "chance."

K: It isn't chance, but simple following the laws of physics and science that created our universe..

I have lived a long time and how I see the universe very different today than I did 40
years ago.. there are two primary forces in the universe, the tendency for order
and the tendency for disorder/chaos which is called "Entropy"
if there was a battle in the universe, that is it. Our energy is spent
during on our time on planet earth to either work for order or to work for disorder...

I am 63, I see the effects of disorder/entropy on my body every single day..
to grow old is to go from order to disorder.. we cannot stop disorder or
entropy from being present in our lives/body...and when our bodies
become disordered enough, we die...death is nothing more than disorder
winning the primary battle in our lives... one often hears about the end
of the universe, and that end is the final victory of disorder/entropy over
the universe...

so for me, I ask, are you an agent of order or disorder?

Not so surprisingly is that I consider those who fight for disorder
as being wrong.. but equally not so surprisingly are the ones
who I think are fighting for disorder,
I hold those who engage in certain political, social, economic
and philosophical beliefs, to be engaging in the act of
promoting disorder, so to name names, I hold conservatives
and believers in religion as being agents of disorder,
I also hold that those who believe in capitalism to engage
in disorder.. I hold that those who promote dictatorships
like Trumpism/Nazism to engage in disorder...

Now think about it instead of just blindly attacking me as being
wrong.... what is my focal point in regard, to what brings about
order and disorder in our part of the universe?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Before you get too excited, religion is not cult.

K: religion is the very definition of a cult...

Kropotkin

[seeds]

...so for me, I ask, are you an agent of order or disorder?

Not so surprisingly is that I consider those who fight for disorder
as being wrong.. but equally not so surprisingly are the ones
who I think are fighting for disorder,
I hold those who engage in certain political, social, economic
and philosophical beliefs, to be engaging in the act of
promoting disorder, so to name names, I hold conservatives
and believers in religion as being agents of disorder,
I also hold that those who believe in capitalism to engage
in disorder.. I hold that those who promote dictatorships
like Trumpism/Nazism to engage in disorder...

Now think about it instead of just blindly attacking me as being
wrong.... what is my focal point in regard, to what brings about
order and disorder in our part of the universe?

Kropotkin

Well, first of all, you're the one contributing to "disorder" by attributing words written by me (seeds) to poster "Age" (please fix it). And for the sake of clarity ("order"), I suggest that you not intersperse (entangle) your replies in the same quote box of the posts you are responding to.

And secondly, I'm in my 70's, so it would be wonderful to be 63 again. You're a lucky man to be so young.

And, lastly, you're the one who complained about only having "questions" about life. So, I'm having trouble understanding why you're making such a big stink about someone offering some tentative answers to your questions (as was provided in this subsequent post - viewtopic.php?p=584689#p584689)
_______

[Peter Kropotkin]

...so for me, I ask, are you an agent of order or disorder?

Not so surprisingly is that I consider those who fight for disorder
as being wrong.. but equally not so surprisingly are the ones
who I think are fighting for disorder,
I hold those who engage in certain political, social, economic
and philosophical beliefs, to be engaging in the act of
promoting disorder, so to name names, I hold conservatives
and believers in religion as being agents of disorder,
I also hold that those who believe in capitalism to engage
in disorder.. I hold that those who promote dictatorships
like Trumpism/Nazism to engage in disorder...

Now think about it instead of just blindly attacking me as being
wrong.... what is my focal point in regard, to what brings about
order and disorder in our part of the universe?

Kropotkin

Well, first of all, you're the one contributing to "disorder" by attributing words written by me (seeds) to poster "Age" (please fix it). And for the sake of clarity ("order"), I suggest that you not intersperse (entangle) your replies in the same quote box of the posts you are responding to.

K: my apologies, I quote often make that mistake of "putting words into the wrong mouth"..
I am technologically challenged, so in responding, I make mistakes... both in the
responses and in the "quote box" and to be honest, I most likely will make that mistake
again and again and probably again... about others.. what can I say? I am consistent
anyway...


SEEDS: And secondly, I'm in my 70's, so it would be wonderful to be 63 again. You're a lucky man to be so young.

K: It is all relative.. for some, my daughter for example, I am older than dirt..
and others, my mom, who is 87, I am young, very, very young.. depending on
who is doing the counting...


S: And, lastly, you're the one who complained about only having "questions" about life. So, I'm having trouble understanding why you're making such a big stink about someone offering some tentative answers to your questions (as was provided in this subsequent post - viewtopic.php?p=584689#p584689)

K: again, it is all relative.. what may look like a "big stink" isn't, if there one
thing I have learned is that every single act and action looks very different to
everyone else.. what looks like a crime to me, is no big deal to someone else...
I think we actually understand each other far less than we think so...
a whole lot of assumptions are made when people try to relate to others...

try the word "love" what "love" is to me, may be and probably is, quite
different than what "love" looks like to you...and quite different than
it looks to everyone else.. I've come to accept that what looks like
a simple statement for me, often becomes quite complicated to others..
oh well...I can't help that... I can only write what I believe in in
language that makes sense to others... I hope, but doubt that helps..

Kropotkin

[Dubious]

Really. You need to wake up, pardner.

To what, knowing what? Enlighten me!

- A cult wants as much from you as it can get: body mind and soul. What do you get in return?
- You get promises for the future, and you get the adulation of both the cult and the cultish.
- You must display your Woke Badge for the adulation from the cultish, and to earn it one needs to sing the verse of the cult. The verses are in the oral tradition of yes to this, and no to that.
- Take for instance, the abortion cult.
- From that cult and cultish you get promises that the world inside you will be right again.
- You hear praises of, “You go girl!”
(No one ever said cults aren’t tone deaf.)

- Climate change cult, sex change cult, abortion cult, other cults … they’ve all got their membership rules to earn the Woke Badge.

From all this I gather climate change to you is just a wokish hoax...a conspiracy theory of which most cults are made?

[Age]

Indeed, there is no evidence that heaven or hell exists.

AGE: There is NOT just 'evidence', there is ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE 'PROOF' that 'heaven' AND 'hell' do ACTUALLY exist.
The reason WHY some people BELIEVE there is NO evidence AT ALL that 'heaven' and 'hell' exist is because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for the words 'heaven' and 'hell', and more so because of the Wrong INTERPRETATIONS they have for WHERE 'heaven' AND 'hell' are MEANT TO BE existing.

However, you are literally surrounded in a vast abundance of, at least, "circumstantial" evidence that something "intelligent" is responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe.

K: AND again, there is no evidence that there is a heaven, hell or god.. not to mention
that there isn't even evidence for an "intelligence" that "is responsible for the unfathomable
order of the universe"

AGE: otherwise, you are defaulting to the utterly absurd notion that it's all the result of the blind and mindless processes of "chance."

K: It isn't chance, but simple following the laws of physics and science that created our universe..

"kropotkin", 'you' have MISQUOTED me, as it was "seeds" who wrote that last one.

I have lived a long time

Relatively speaking this could be disputed, as well as refuted. But anyway,

and how I see the universe very different today than I did 40
years ago..

Well this is just PLAIN OBVIOUS.

Do you KNOW of ANY one who SEES 'the Universe' EXACTLY THE SAME 40 years on?

Even 'the human race', collectively, SEE the 'Universe' VERY DIFFERENTLY than they did 40 years ago, just like the way 'you' SEE the 'Universe', in the days when this was being written, It was VERY DIFFERENT than how 'we' SEE the 'Universe', NOW.

there are two primary forces in the universe, the tendency for order
and the tendency for disorder/chaos which is called "Entropy"

'Order' and/or 'disorder' can be VERY RELATIVE.

if there was a battle in the universe, that is it. Our energy is spent
during on our time on planet earth to either work for order or to work for disorder...

OR, one can just 'sit back', as some say, and just WATCH and OBSERVE what is REALLY going on HERE.

I am 63, I see the effects of disorder/entropy on my body every single day..

REALLY?

Some of 'us' just SEE Nature, at work.

See, some of 'us' do NOT LOOK FOR 'eithers/ors' NOR for 'positives/negatives', 'we' instead just LOOK AT 'things' EXACTLY how they ARE.

Some people, as it is said, LOOK AT 'things' as being 'the glass half full or half empty', whereas there are "others" who just LOOK AT 'things' as they Truly ARE. That is; the liquid is half way, and as some might say, in equilibrium, EXACTLY like the 'Universe' IS IN.

Absolutely EVERY 'thing' is IN a Truly Natural process ALL leading up to what is about to happen, and occur.

to grow old is to go from order to disorder.. we cannot stop disorder or
entropy from being present in our lives/body...

As I was POINTING OUT and SHOWING before, some of 'us' SEE 'things' VERY DIFFERENTLY from how 'you' DID back 40 years ago when this was being written. See, what 'we' OBSERVE and SEE is although the human body APPEARS to 'grow old', and what you call, 'going from order to disorder', 'we' call just a Truly Natural evolutionary process. (REALLY thee One Thing is just CHANGING in shape and form, and NOT 'getting old' AT ALL. But this was a far bit of LEARNING to do, back in 'your' days before this is Truly UNDERSTOOD and SEEN.)

Oh, and by the way, 'you' NEVER 'grow old', as 'you' are ALWAYS becoming 'anew'. (If ANY one is Truly interested this can also be FULLY, and IRREFUTABLY, explained, along with absolutely EVERY thing else I talk about and say here, in this forum.)

and when our bodies
become disordered enough, we die...

Did you NOT KNOW this 40 years ago, from when you wrote this?

Also, and by the way, thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' IS VERY DIFFERENT from what you just said and wrote here.

death is nothing more than disorder

'Death', like 'birth', is, also, VERY RELATIVE.

Also, if 'death' is NOTHING MORE than 'disorder', then this would self-refute your CLAIM that 'growing old' is 'disorder' or 'entropy', and that you can NOT stop them from 'being present' in your lives or your bodies.

winning the primary battle in our lives...

What did you think or BELIEVE you were 'battling'?

You were NOT REALLY 'trying to' 'live' FOREVER, were you?

one often hears about the end
of the universe, and that end is the final victory of disorder/entropy over
the universe...

Some also HEAR that the Universe actually BEGAN. But NOT EVERY thing one HEARS, especially in those days when this was being written, is even remotely true, let alone ACTUALLY True.

so for me, I ask, are you an agent of order or disorder?

As I mentioned above 'I' am NOT a so-called 'agent' for ANY thing other than what is ACTUALLY IRREFUTABLY True.

And, so-called 'order' OR 'disorder' is just a Truly DISTORTED WAY to 'try to' LOOK AT and SEE 'things'.

That WAY of LOOKING AT and SEE 'things' is like asking;

Is it 'nature' OR 'nurture'.

Is it 'creation' OR 'evolution'.

Is it 'free will' OR 'determinism'.

What came first, 'the chicken' OR 'the egg'? Or,

Any of the other 'this' OR 'that', or, 'one' OR 'the other', so-called 'philosophical questions'.

This is where the True BATTLE LAYS, as there, REALLY, is NO 'one' OR 'the other' scenarios here.

With ALL these BOTH EXIST, EQUALLY.

See, the WAY one LOOKS AT 'things', influences how they then SEE 'things'.

And, SADLY, through a VERY DISTORTED WAY of 'educating', 'you', adult human beings, have been 'taught', and thus have also 'grown up', to LOOK AT and SEE 'things' from this VERY DISTORTED WAY of 'this' OR 'that'. The idea of 'debate', and teaching 'debating', has been CAUSED and CREATED this DISTORTED 'thinking', or DISTORTED WAY of LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things'.

Not so surprisingly is that I consider those who fight for disorder
as being wrong.. but equally not so surprisingly are the ones
who I think are fighting for disorder,

Did you mean 'order', for one of these 'disorders'?

And, WHY would ANY one even so-call 'fight' for 'one' OR 'the other' of these 'things'.

To me, 'order' NOR 'disorder' REALLY have absolutely ANY thing to do with the 'Universe', Itself.

I hold those who engage in certain political, social, economic
and philosophical beliefs, to be engaging in the act of
promoting disorder, so to name names, I hold conservatives
and believers in religion as being agents of disorder,

And what is 'disorder', to you, EXACTLY?

Is it the process of just 'growing old', as you called 'disorder', or is 'disorder' just 'death' itself, as you also called 'disorder'? Or, is 'disorder' some other thing.

Either way, if ANY of these 'disordered' things are NOT just a Natural process anyway, then what are they, EXACTLY?

And, if you HOLD some people, with very particular and specific views, as so-called "agents of disorder", does this mean that 'you' are a so-called "agent of order"?

If yes, then what does the 'order' word refer to, to you, EXACTLY?

I also hold that those who believe in capitalism to engage
in disorder..

Does this also mean that you HOLD those who BELIEVE in the opposite of 'capitalism' to engage in 'order', and, if the word 'disorder' refers to 'growing old' and/or 'death', to you, then does the 'order' word refer to 'growing young' or 'birth'?

I hold that those who promote dictatorships
like Trumpism/Nazism to engage in disorder...

Okay, but SO WHAT?

A LOT of 'you', people, back in those days when this was being written, 'HELD' a LOT of things, which ended up been SEEN and UNDERSTOOD as being Truly and ABSOLUTELY STUPID, ABSURD, and RIDICULOUS.

Now think about it instead of just blindly attacking me as being
wrong....

WHO are you DIRECTING this 'attack' at here, EXACTLY, 'me' or 'seeds'?

what is my focal point in regard, to what brings about
order and disorder in our part of the universe?

Kropotkin

What 'brings' 'order' and/or 'disorder', in that absolutely TINY and INSIGNIFICANT part of the Universe, is just the WAY some of 'you', human beings, THINK ABOUT and SEE things.

As I was SAYING 'order' or 'disorder/chaos' is VERY RELATIVE. One can OBSERVE and SEE this by just LOOKING AT the WAY 'things' ARE in one home from another one.

And, do NOT forget that earth is One home, (from other homes?), within the Universe.

I SEE 'order' and 'disorder/chaos' MORE SO just in RELATION to the way 'you', adult human beings, behave and misbehave rather than I do in the Universe, Itself.

[Walker]

From all this I gather climate change to you is just a wokish hoax...a conspiracy theory of which most cults are made?

Is this what hoax is, to you?

It certainly describes the Climate Change Cult ... to a T. Although, Climate Change Cult does gull it's victims into putting up the highest possible social currency, and hard currency. Well, as hard as it gets with the printing of all the funny money going on.

*

”A hoax is a widely publicized falsehood so fashioned as to invite reflexive, unthinking acceptance by the greatest number of persons of the most varied social identities and of the highest possible social pretensions to gull its victims into putting up the highest possible social currency in support of the hoax.[1]

“Whereas the promoters of frauds, fakes, and scams devise them so that they will withstand the highest degree of scrutiny customary in the affair, hoaxers are confident, justifiably or not, that their representations will receive no scrutiny at all. They have such confidence because their representations belong to a world of notions fundamental to the victims' views of reality, but whose truth and importance they accept without argument or evidence, and so never question.

“Some hoaxers intend eventually to unmask their representations as in fact a hoax so as to expose their victims as fools; seeking some form of profit, other hoaxers hope to maintain the hoax indefinitely, so that it is only when sceptical persons willing to investigate their claims publish their findings that at last they stand revealed as hoaxers.”

- Wikipedia

*

Note that the definition, with which you might or might not agree, distinguishes hoax from "promoters of frauds, fakes, and scams."

Climate Change Cult just might hold the distinction of being both a hoax, and a fraud, fake, and scam. A Quad.

So to answer your question, the Climate Change Cult is just another Quad, whether or not it's the only wokish notion to qualify in all four categories.

[Walker]

Before you get too excited, religion is not cult.

K: religion is the very definition of a cult...

Kropotkin

... continue with your reasoning.

Cult is one word.
Religion is another word.
When defining one word with only one other word, you get a synonym, not a definition.

What are the differences between cult and religion, in your reasoning?

[Dontaskme]

1:However, you are literally surrounded in a vast abundance of, at least, "circumstantial" evidence that something "intelligent" is responsible for the unfathomable order of the universe.

2:Otherwise, you are defaulting to the utterly absurd notion that it's all the result of the blind and mindless processes of "chance."

The idea that is number 1 is favorable only because you reject the idea that is number 2

However, you have no way of proving whether 1 or 2 is correct, as both these ideas have to exist at the same time in order for a preference to be made. Holding to a preference of truth...is never the actual truth, which is unknowable.



You will always ignore what does not fit with your ideal model of truth, because that's all truth can be known to you, your own model of it.

Reality does not work like that, reality is not a model, reality is the real deal.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Really. You need to wake up, pardner.

To what, knowing what? Enlighten me!

- A cult wants as much from you as it can get: body mind and soul. What do you get in return?
- You get promises for the future, and you get the adulation of both the cult and the cultish.
- You must display your Woke Badge for the adulation from the cultish, and to earn it one needs to sing the verse of the cult. The verses are in the oral tradition of yes to this, and no to that.
- Take for instance, the abortion cult.
- From that cult and cultish you get promises that the world inside you will be right again.
- You hear praises of, “You go girl!”
(No one ever said cults aren’t tone deaf.)

- Climate change cult, sex change cult, abortion cult, other cults … they’ve all got their membership rules to earn the Woke Badge. Not belonging to any cults past or present gives rise to the question:

Do they have secret handshakes and gestures?

Feel any lighter?

K: and yet, at no time did you present any facts to support your position...
you just said climate change is woke... and that's it..

let us say, you aren't feeling well and you go to a doctor....
doctor says, your tests results say, you have cancer and without
aggressive treatment, you will die.. but you have doubts as to this
diagnosis, so you go to another doctor, and that second doctor agrees
that you have cancer, but still you doubt, so you get a third opinion,
and that doctor says, yep, you have cancer.. now at that point, you have
opinions from 3 doctors saying you have deadly cancer and need radical
treatment to live...so what do you do?

I am guessing you get that treatment..

(mind you, I have had two major surgeries and one minor one, and I am recovering from
that latest, minor surgery on my ankle.. I have been out of work since April)

now if you get an operation based on just three opinions, what would you do
if 97% of all climate specialists agree that climate change is man made?
It isn't a cult if specialists, like doctors agree that something is true...
it becomes science, unless you disagree with science and I can't help
you there...because if you believe that science is wrong, you are beyond help...

Kropotkin

[Walker]

K: and yet, at no time did you present any facts to support your position...
you just said climate change is woke... and that's it..
Kropotkin

You'll never have all the facts about anything. But, you have enough. You're human. You can think, and reason accurately.

The Woke Folks are the monitors for the Climate Change Cult, and any other propaganda being pushed by the gubberment. They’re the self-appointed arbiters of your behavior and speech, thus their intent is to “put up the highest possible social currency” in support of the cult, to force and reinforce. Force, and reinforce.

To spur their efforts, the Woke believe that if they don’t do their duty and enforce the Cult, then it’s the end of the world for the planet and everything on it. They’re on a mission from … Cult, not God.

This is why they often sound so shrill and nagging when there’s a change in the weather and we get a bit of a hot spell, or a bit of cold spell. To the Woke, their discomfort is a reminder that Humans, yes, those evil humans with all their electricity needs for those batteries, are a threat to the entire world.

This threat is caused by all the careless, selfish Unwoke who have yet to awaken, if they even can awaken, that is, and if they can’t or won’t wake up, well, no doubt there are contingency plans for that.

We’re all just walking, talking lumps of carbon in the really big view of the Climate Change Cult.

[Peter Kropotkin]

K: and yet, at no time did you present any facts to support your position...
you just said climate change is woke... and that's it..
Kropotkin

You'll never have all the facts about anything. But, you have enough. You're human. You can think, and reason accurately.

The Woke Folks are the monitors for the Climate Change Cult, and any other propaganda being pushed by the gubberment. They’re the self-appointed arbiters of your behavior and speech, thus their intent is to “put up the highest possible social currency” in support of the cult, to force and reinforce. Force, and reinforce.

To spur their efforts, the Woke believe that if they don’t do their duty and enforce the Cult, then it’s the end of the world for the planet and everything on it. They’re on a mission from … Cult, not God.

This is why they often sound so shrill and nagging when there’s a change in the weather and we get a bit of a hot spell, or a bit of cold spell. To the Woke, their discomfort is a reminder that Humans, yes, those evil humans with all their electricity needs for those batteries, are a threat to the entire world.

This threat is caused by all the careless, selfish Unwoke who have yet to awaken, if they even can awaken, that is, and if they can’t or won’t wake up, well, no doubt there are contingency plans for that.

We’re all just walking, talking lumps of carbon in the really big view of the Climate Change Cult.

K: I am sorry for you.. I am... you are so lost in your beliefs that you can't spot the
truth to save your life... if 97% of climate scientists believe that climate
change is true, what evidence do you have to disagree with it?
Not opinions, but actual facts, evidence.. if your doctor says, you have cancer,
an expert says so, on what basis do you have to disagree with your doctor?
I would rather engage with facts and evidence than hold opinions that
may cause me to die...and that is all you have... opinion and not facts/evidence

Kropotkin