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Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:43 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:36 pm
I defined good as a state of pleasure and evil as a state of suffering. Please note that I define good or evil as a state, not as an act so the pleasure or suffering in a situation depends on whether the person is good or evil. For example, an evil person enjoys pain so that is good to him.
so that evil person will follow your heuristic to do more evil. And his or her pleasure will confirm, via your suggestion, that he or she is on the good track.
Pain is good for an evil person so she/he looks for more.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:43 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:36 pm
I defined good as a state of pleasure and evil as a state of suffering. Please note that I define good or evil as a state, not as an act so the pleasure or suffering in a situation depends on whether the person is good or evil. For example, an evil person enjoys pain so that is good to him.
so that evil person will follow your heuristic to do more evil. And his or her pleasure will confirm, via your suggestion, that he or she is on the good track.
Pain is good for an evil person so she/he looks for more.
I have no idea how that relates to what you said before or how I responded.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 9:20 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:43 pm
so that evil person will follow your heuristic to do more evil. And his or her pleasure will confirm, via your suggestion, that he or she is on the good track.
Pain is good for an evil person so she/he looks for more.
I have no idea how that relates to what you said before or how I responded.
I have no idea what is your oproblem?
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 9:33 pm
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:20 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 8:59 pm
Pain is good for an evil person so she/he looks for more.
I have no idea how that relates to what you said before or how I responded.
I have no idea what is your oproblem?
There's no need to couch it as a problem. I said that evil people (those who get defined as such) seem to enjoy, get pleasure from doing evil. I don't see a direct response to that.
Pain may be good for an evil person. But perhaps they don't feel pain where you think they do and given that you only experience qualia created by your own mind, what they experience is beyond your knowledge.
You suggested we define the good and the evil and then do right.
I point out that nearly everyone, including some of the most destructive people as seen by pretty much any system defined the good and tried to do right by their values. Why should we all do that when it is such a fallible heuristic?
It seems to me that instead of directly responding to the points I make, you reassert your position, sometimes in new ways. Or just send a new assertion back that doesn't really address what I write. So, I keep trying to get a response.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 9:59 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:33 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:20 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
I have no idea how that relates to what you said before or how I responded.
I have no idea what is your oproblem?
There's no need to couch it as a problem. I said that evil people (those who get defined as such) seem to enjoy, get pleasure from doing evil. I don't see a direct response to that.
Yes, they take pleasure from doing evil.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
Pain may be good for an evil person. But perhaps they don't feel pain where you think they do and given that you only experience qualia created by your own mind, what they experience is beyond your knowledge.
Do you mean that the experience of pain is different between two different people one good and another evil?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
You suggested we define the good and the evil and then do right.
I point out that nearly everyone, including some of the most destructive people as seen by pretty much any system defined the good and tried to do right by their values. Why should we all do that when it is such a fallible heuristic?
Do you have a better option?
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:23 pm
by popeye1945
Morality is a system of sentiments and laws that supports the well-being of biological subjects, insuring their security and common biological existence.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 5:26 am
by Veritas Aequitas
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:45 am
bahman wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 10:43 pm
First, you need to define good, evil, right, and wrong. The morality is then to choose and do right.
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind.
Evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind. Right is what we should choose and do whether is good or evil.
And wrong is what we should avoid choosing and doing whether it is good or evil.
Your definition of 'what is good' is too general and too loose which is applicable to all sort of things that will involve pleasure and clarity of mind, e.g. drugs, sex, sports, entertainment, and anything that trigger the pleasure-circuit, where even a masochist will feel pleasure for inflicting violence.
Morality is a specific subject where to be effective we need to define necessarily good as non-evil.
Re Morality, 'evil' is a state of suffering, pains and the likes which is both mental and physical related to only an identified specific sets of human acts, from genocides, mass murder, rapes along a range of evil to petty crimes, etc.
A state of sufferings can arise from so many event and situations which can be a psychological or a psychiatric issue, social, etc.
Any serious confusion of mind is solely a psychological or a psychiatric issue, e.g. dementia, alzheimer's, drunkenness and the likes.
Your thinking above is too loose.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 5:34 am
by Veritas Aequitas
DPMartin wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 6:40 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:36 am
Morality is what I had been and mentioned in the OP plus what proposed above in the OP.
Point is morality for peace has to effected at the level of the neurons in the brain.
that is not a part of human nature which is merely animal nature taken to the next level with more capabilities.
and i could be wrong but it seems you watch the news to much
What are you talking about?
Re above,
CRUDELY, the brain can be divided [note crudely] into three main parts.
1. The lowest part is confined to the reptiles, e.g. dinosaurs,
2. the middle to mammals in general
3. the top is mainly to higher mammals and humans.
Morality is confined to neurons in 3 i.e. humans only, thus to increase moral competence we need to improve the appropriate neuronal connectivity in these parts of the brain.
It is not that I watch the news too much, it is that you research and read too little, too narrow and too shallow.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 5:44 am
by Veritas Aequitas
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:23 pm
Morality is a system of sentiments and laws that supports the well-being of biological subjects, insuring their security and common biological existence.
I would tweak the above as,
Morality is an
inherent system [as a moral potential] of sentiments and laws [internal]
within ALL humans that supports the well-being of biological subjects, insuring their security and common biological existence - towards the preservation of the human species.
Because the human brain is still evolving from since 4 billion years ago, the inherent moral potential is not fully activated in humans yet but nevertheless has some degrees of activities in various humans.
see below for a general [
crude] reference re the evolution of the brain continuing from reptiles to humans.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 6:56 am
by Iwannaplato
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:59 pm
Yes, they take pleasure from doing evil.
But you said
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind and evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
You suggested we define the good and the evil and then do right.
I point out that nearly everyone, including some of the most destructive people as seen by pretty much any system defined the good and tried to do right by their values. Why should we all do that when it is such a fallible heuristic?
Do you have a better option?
Well, right off the bat admit that the heuristic does not work if people are evil. And then start to figure out if there is any advice that doesn't make things worse. Because that heuristic will make the evil person, should they read it, even more convinced they are on the right track. Silence would be better, since the good people already try to do right. Of course, there are many versions of good people. And many of them think the others are evil.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 3:46 pm
by bahman
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 6:56 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:59 pm
Yes, they take pleasure from doing evil.
But you said
Good is the state of pleasure and clarity of mind and evil is the state of suffering and confusion of mind.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
You suggested we define the good and the evil and then do right.
I point out that nearly everyone, including some of the most destructive people as seen by pretty much any system defined the good and tried to do right by their values. Why should we all do that when it is such a fallible heuristic?
Do you have a better option?
Well, right off the bat admit that the heuristic does not work if people are evil.
Given the life conditions and physiology of humans, I don't think that if there was any human if they were evil. Evil might work on different physiology and life condition.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:13 pm
And then start to figure out if there is any advice that doesn't make things worse. Because that heuristic will make the evil person, should they read it, even more convinced they are on the right track. Silence would be better, since the good people already try to do right. Of course, there are many versions of good people. And many of them think the others are evil.
I cannot follow you here.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 4:08 pm
by DPMartin
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 5:34 am
It is not that I watch the news too much, it is that you research and read too little, too narrow and too shallow.
it sounds like media rhetoric to me, that's all. WMD's, world this, change mankind that. none of what you say is original. sorry morals are the agreements between men, or people if you must, and unless you want to give everyone a lobotomy, agreements will be broken because it man's nature to do so.
hence solitary confinement for those who can't even keep an agreement to not be dangerous to those around them.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:54 am
by popeye1945
[/quote]Morality is an
inherent system [as a moral potential] of sentiments and laws [internal]
within ALL humans that supports the well-being of biological subjects, insuring their security and common biological existence - towards the preservation of the human species. Because the human brain is still evolving from since 4 billion years ago, the inherent moral potential is not fully activated in humans yet but nevertheless has some degrees of activities in various humans.
see below for a general [
crude] reference re the evolution of the brain continuing from reptiles to humans.
[/quote]
Veritas,
I am familiar with the development of the brain from the inside-out but evolutionary development does not go back quite that far, four billion years is the age of the earth. I suspect that life experienced feelings prior to the development of thought, it seems almost a necessity of that seed of feelings.
I still maintain that the identification of one's self with the self in others gives rise to compassion, and it is compassion that gives rise to morality while morality inables society.
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 5:16 am
by Veritas Aequitas
DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 4:08 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 5:34 am
It is not that I watch the news too much, it is that you research and read too little, too narrow and too shallow.
it sounds like media rhetoric to me, that's all. WMD's, world this, change mankind that. none of what you say is original. sorry morals are the agreements between men, or people if you must, and unless you want to give everyone a lobotomy, agreements will be broken because it man's nature to do so.
hence solitary confinement for those who can't even keep an agreement to not be dangerous to those around them.
morals are the agreements between men, or people??
Do you have references to support your claim?
Re: What is Morality?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 5:21 am
by Veritas Aequitas
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 3:54 am
Morality is an
inherent system [as a moral potential] of sentiments and laws [internal]
within ALL humans that supports the well-being of biological subjects, insuring their security and common biological existence - towards the preservation of the human species. Because the human brain is still evolving from since 4 billion years ago, the inherent moral potential is not fully activated in humans yet but nevertheless has some degrees of activities in various humans.
see below for a general [
crude] reference re the evolution of the brain continuing from reptiles to humans.
Veritas,
I am familiar with the development of the brain from the inside-out but evolutionary development does not go back quite that far, four billion years is the age of the earth. I suspect that life experienced feelings prior to the development of thought, it seems almost a necessity of that seed of feelings.
I still maintain that the identification of one's self with the self in others gives rise to compassion, and it is compassion that gives rise to morality while morality inables society.
I was referring to the time the first one-celled living things emerged, appx around 3.5 billion years ago, if not, then 3 billion years.
I was reducing morality [in this perspective] to its fundamental, i.e. striving to live as long as possible till the inevitable and this basic "program" is embedded in all living things.
- The first known single-celled organisms appeared on Earth about 3.5 billion years ago, roughly a billion years after Earth formed.
20ago. astrobiology.nasa.gov