Philosophy Now Forum

Atla wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:20 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:47 am

Atla wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:56 am
How could I, you already found all the answers (or at least that's how it may seem to you).

Perceiving with clarity will answer all of your questions.** ^^^

**100% guaranteed results or double your money back!!

^^^ Remember...the answer ALWAYS precedes the question.

You can demonstrate this by answering the ultimate philosophical question: why are we here?
(Why the human form, why this world, what's going on with this world, why are we here?)

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:00 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:20 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:47 am
Perceiving with clarity will answer all of your questions.** ^^^

**100% guaranteed results or double your money back!!

^^^ Remember...the answer ALWAYS precedes the question.

You can demonstrate this by answering the ultimate philosophical question: why are we here?
(Why the human form, why this world, what's going on with this world, why are we here?)

You would rather inherit a fortune than create one yourself, no?

I can't tell you what you want to know. Everybody has to do the hard work themselves.

You have already done the most important part, ask the questions. Now it is up to you to realize the answers.

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:11 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:00 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:20 pm
You can demonstrate this by answering the ultimate philosophical question: why are we here?
(Why the human form, why this world, what's going on with this world, why are we here?)

You would rather inherit a fortune than create one yourself, no?

I can't tell you what you want to know. Everybody has to do the hard work themselves.

You have already done the most important part, ask the questions. Now it is up to you to realize the answers.

Or maybe I explored the question in more depth than you would think, and wanted to see what you found with this "non-intellectual" approach because I found nothing with "non-intellectualism" only the echoes of my own mind.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:55 pmI've been a very dedicated Zen student for over thirty years.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:55 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:11 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:00 pm
You would rather inherit a fortune than create one yourself, no?

I can't tell you what you want to know. Everybody has to do the hard work themselves.

You have already done the most important part, ask the questions. Now it is up to you to realize the answers.

Or maybe I explored the question in more depth than you would think, and wanted to see what you found with this "non-intellectual" approach because I found nothing with "non-intellectualism" only the echoes of my own mind.

Fair enough, but why invalidate others' experiences? I've been a very dedicated Zen student for over thirty years. There is a great deal to the non-intellectual. This is easy to grasp if you have ever been in love or had a child. The intellect can only get us so far.

The vast majority of folks who go down the meditation path never make it very far [for all kinds of reasons]. For those who are willing to persist, there are many, many advantages to cultivating clarity. From a pragmatic point of view, simply being able to see things clearer allows one to make much better decisions resulting in better life experiences. But that's not what the Zen student is attempting to achieve.

The answers to life's questions come slowly with practice and experience. It's something you just know because the way you perceive reality has completely changed. When you are able to take yourself out of the equation, everything else is different.

I am not sure what you tried, but remember that the historical Buddha tried all kinds of things before he found his path. Hang in there and keep searching. You will not regret it.

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:58 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:55 pmI've been a very dedicated Zen student for over thirty years.

I figured something like that.

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:02 pmBecause I've experinced so many unusual states of mind for years, my reality fundamentally changed at least a dozen times, I learned how to see through it all. I have reason to believe that 30 years of meditation still leads people to false answers. Especially seeing how even after 30 years of meditation they can't ever seem to be able to come up with any new insights.

Tried "taking myself out of the equation" too afterwards, I did the Eastern "enlightenment" thing, I simply rebuilt a new ego since then, that's why I'm an "Eastern" nondualist.

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:37 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:58 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:55 pmI've been a very dedicated Zen student for over thirty years.

I figured something like that.

Something like what?

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:52 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:02 pmBecause I've experinced so many unusual states of mind for years, my reality fundamentally changed at least a dozen times, I learned how to see through it all. I have reason to believe that 30 years of meditation still leads people to false answers. Especially seeing how even after 30 years of meditation they can't ever seem to be able to come up with any new insights.

Tried "taking myself out of the equation" too afterwards, I did the Eastern "enlightenment" thing, I simply rebuilt a new ego since then, that's why I'm an "Eastern" nondualist.

You did the "Eastern Enlightenment thing?"

VERY few people who do this thing [as you refer to it] ever get anywhere close to any realization. Meditation [done properly] is extremely difficult. Quieting the mind for a prolonged period of time takes [for all but the very few] many, many years. It is attaining this quieting of the mind that gives rise to the clarity which results in wisdom/compassion.

One of the most important aspects of practice is to go into it without a "wanting" mind. You allow it to come. I am not a teacher so I will not say anything more but enlightenment is not what you believe it to be. It is simply being able to see clearly...nothing more. Read some Dogen if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

You are correct that it doesn't matter if you meditate 3 years, 30 years, 300 years or 3 million lifetimes, if you cannot keep your clarity then you will fall back into the same old intellectual traps. Clarity is what it is...nothing special. Getting there is another matter altogether and takes tremendous effort for all but the very, very few throughout history.

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:36 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:52 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:02 pmBecause I've experinced so many unusual states of mind for years, my reality fundamentally changed at least a dozen times, I learned how to see through it all. I have reason to believe that 30 years of meditation still leads people to false answers. Especially seeing how even after 30 years of meditation they can't ever seem to be able to come up with any new insights.

Tried "taking myself out of the equation" too afterwards, I did the Eastern "enlightenment" thing, I simply rebuilt a new ego since then, that's why I'm an "Eastern" nondualist.

You did the "Eastern Enlightenment thing?"

VERY few people who do this thing [as you refer to it] ever get anywhere close to any realization. Meditation [done properly] is extremely difficult. Quieting the mind for a prolonged period of time takes [for all but the very few] many, many years. It is attaining this quieting of the mind that gives rise to the clarity which results in wisdom/compassion.

One of the most important aspects of practice is to go into it without a "wanting" mind. You allow it to come. I am not a teacher so I will not say anything more but enlightenment is not what you believe it to be. It is simply being able to see clearly...nothing more. Read some Dogen if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

You are correct that it doesn't matter if you meditate 3 years, 30 years, 300 years or 3 million lifetimes, if you cannot keep your clarity then you will fall back into the same old intellectual traps. Clarity is what it is...nothing special. Getting there is another matter altogether and takes tremendous effort for all but the very, very few throughout history.

Nope. Strictly speaking enlightenment has nothing to do with compassion, it's not even really necessary to quiet the mind. It's only a wisdom of a certain kind, seeing clearly what our true nature is (or rather what our nature isn't).
And nope, prolonged meditation and tremendous effort may indeed be the main way to reach the realization, but there are other ways too.

Most of the things you claim seem to be Zen-Buddhist philosophy, but they seem to have a rather narrow idea of this with a bit of sugarcoating.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:29 am

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:37 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:58 pm
I figured something like that.

Something like what?

I figured something like, insights deriving from sustained attentiveness to causation, via physical practices that result in a unification of non-intellectual being, with intellectual knowing. But there's something more, call it an energy of peace, reflected in meanings that underlie words.

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:36 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:52 pm
You did the "Eastern Enlightenment thing?"

VERY few people who do this thing [as you refer to it] ever get anywhere close to any realization. Meditation [done properly] is extremely difficult. Quieting the mind for a prolonged period of time takes [for all but the very few] many, many years. It is attaining this quieting of the mind that gives rise to the clarity which results in wisdom/compassion.

One of the most important aspects of practice is to go into it without a "wanting" mind. You allow it to come. I am not a teacher so I will not say anything more but enlightenment is not what you believe it to be. It is simply being able to see clearly...nothing more. Read some Dogen if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

You are correct that it doesn't matter if you meditate 3 years, 30 years, 300 years or 3 million lifetimes, if you cannot keep your clarity then you will fall back into the same old intellectual traps. Clarity is what it is...nothing special. Getting there is another matter altogether and takes tremendous effort for all but the very, very few throughout history.

Nope. Strictly speaking enlightenment has nothing to do with compassion, it's not even really necessary to quiet the mind. It's only a wisdom of a certain kind, seeing clearly what our true nature is (or rather what our nature isn't).
And nope, prolonged meditation and tremendous effort may indeed be the main way to reach the realization, but there are other ways too.

Most of the things you claim seem to be Zen-Buddhist philosophy, but they seem to have a rather narrow idea of this with a bit of sugarcoating.

If you wish to debate, choose any number of the great masters throughout history and have it out with them. I consider myself a Zen purist and not a Buddhist. I adhere to very little of the writings [an exception being the Heart Sutra] or any other traditions. I follow the Huang Po [shit or get off the pot] teaching. Once you get that meditation is The Way, why carry all the rest around with you? There is only one teaching in Zen and this is it. The rest is for those who simply cannot give up conceptual thinking for even a moment.

There are many paths that go to a similar place. Zen is the one which resonated with me. It's not for everybody. There are other methods better suited to different kinds of people. Hang in there and you will find your path.

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:59 pm

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:49 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:36 pm
Nope. Strictly speaking enlightenment has nothing to do with compassion, it's not even really necessary to quiet the mind. It's only a wisdom of a certain kind, seeing clearly what our true nature is (or rather what our nature isn't).
And nope, prolonged meditation and tremendous effort may indeed be the main way to reach the realization, but there are other ways too.

Most of the things you claim seem to be Zen-Buddhist philosophy, but they seem to have a rather narrow idea of this with a bit of sugarcoating.

If you wish to debate, choose any number of the great masters throughout history and have it out with them. I consider myself a Zen purist and not a Buddhist. I adhere to very little of the writings [an exception being the Heart Sutra] or any other traditions. I follow the Huang Po [shit or get off the pot] teaching. Once you get that meditation is The Way, why carry all the rest around with you? There is only one teaching in Zen and this is it. The rest is for those who simply cannot give up conceptual thinking for even a moment.

There are many paths that go to a similar place. Zen is the one which resonated with me. It's not for everybody. There are other methods better suited to different kinds of people. Hang in there and you will find your path.

What makes you even think that I didn't already find my "path"? I've been meditating for over a decade by the way.

simplicity wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:55 pm You don't seem very settled [but I have no way of really knowing this]. God knows there have been many, many times when I have been all over the place, as well. My apologies. Good luck with your practice and keep up the hard work!

Atla wrote: ↑Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:25 pmI consider the combination of intellect+meditation to be clearly superior to just meditation, when it comes to working on those remaining questions. Actually I find this anti-intellectualism talk to be rather insulting. The greatest human thing is the intellect.