Philosophy Now Forum

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 25, 2025 11:39 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:41 am Which God gives the best results?

That is for you to decide for yourself. I presume that where you live thinking is free from state control.

Did you ask "Which God gives the best results? " in order to oxygenate the discussion? If so, I hope it works!

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 24, 2025 10:49 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 24, 2025 6:33 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Oct 23, 2025 1:28 pm

I presumed that Lucky, you, and I regard the true object of any prayer to be psychological ---- not some sort of substance.

Psychological through the venues of culture, community, family and tradition. Thus controlling for those, eliminate the effect.

Yes, the object of prayer is prevailing culture of belief. But I did not understand you last sentence Lucky. Would you elaborate please?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 12:24 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Oct 25, 2025 11:39 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 25, 2025 3:41 am Which God gives the best results?

That is for you to decide for yourself. I presume that where you live thinking is free from state control.

Did you ask "Which God gives the best results? " in order to oxygenate the discussion? If so, I hope it works!

Sometimes a little bit of grit in the right place creates a pearl-- lol!!

LuckyR wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 7:45 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 24, 2025 10:49 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 24, 2025 6:33 am

Psychological through the venues of culture, community, family and tradition. Thus controlling for those, eliminate the effect.

Yes, the object of prayer is prevailing culture of belief. But I did not understand you last sentence Lucky. Would you elaborate please?

Sorry, I meant that absent the psychological benefit, there's no quantifiable metaphysical benefit.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 9:06 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 7:45 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 24, 2025 10:49 am
Yes, the object of prayer is prevailing culture of belief. But I did not understand you last sentence Lucky. Would you elaborate please?

Sorry, I meant that absent the psychological benefit, there's no quantifiable metaphysical benefit.

Thanks, Lucky. i understand , and of course agree.

I would like to move on to the psychological benefit of the entirely immanent God. I submit that the entirely immanent God is psychologically beneficial , but no use at all for social control.

Are there any circumstances under which the transcendent God can be beneficial? My political stance is that capitalism is okay with the proviso that capitalist excesses are robustly reined in by democratic process.

However considering the rise and rise of Trump and Co in the Land of the Free, the democratic process seems to be ineffectual without a metaphysical dogma.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:05 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 9:06 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 7:45 am

Sorry, I meant that absent the psychological benefit, there's no quantifiable metaphysical benefit.

Thanks, Lucky. i understand , and of course agree.

I would like to move on to the psychological benefit of the entirely immanent God. I submit that the entirely immanent God is psychologically beneficial , but no use at all for social control.

Are there any circumstances under which the transcendent God can be beneficial? My political stance is that capitalism is okay with the proviso that capitalist excesses are robustly reined in by democratic process.

However considering the rise and rise of Trump and Co in the Land of the Free, the democratic process seems to be ineffectual without a metaphysical dogma.

The current state (I call it the Post Truth era), was previously not a viable situation in the Land of the Free, because of many things: firstly, even crooked politicians had a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core. Second, party loyalists were partisan towards their branch of government against encroachment by other branches of government even if run by their own party members. And lastly, politicians had a natural sense of shame, in the sense that crooked individuals would attempt all sorts of shenanigans in secret, but would bow out should their misdeeds be uncovered. If this dogmatic belief in the core structure of the Nation is "metaphysical" in your sense of the word (which I think qualifies), then I agree with your assessment.

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:57 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:05 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Oct 26, 2025 9:06 am
Thanks, Lucky. i understand , and of course agree.

I would like to move on to the psychological benefit of the entirely immanent God. I submit that the entirely immanent God is psychologically beneficial , but no use at all for social control.

Are there any circumstances under which the transcendent God can be beneficial? My political stance is that capitalism is okay with the proviso that capitalist excesses are robustly reined in by democratic process.

However considering the rise and rise of Trump and Co in the Land of the Free, the democratic process seems to be ineffectual without a metaphysical dogma.

The current state (I call it the Post Truth era), was previously not a viable situation in the Land of the Free, because of many things: firstly, even crooked politicians had a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core. Second, party loyalists were partisan towards their branch of government against encroachment by other branches of government even if run by their own party members. And lastly, politicians had a natural sense of shame, in the sense that crooked individuals would attempt all sorts of shenanigans in secret, but would bow out should their misdeeds be uncovered. If this dogmatic belief in the core structure of the Nation is "metaphysical" in your sense of the word (which I think qualifies), then I agree with your assessment.

I know you yourself are American and hope you will excuse me for being objective.I am wondering about a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core.

what this feels like. As a Scot living in England and with my family background and schooling I feel as much European as I do British, so am unsure I really understand the bit quoted. Could you suggest a bit of poetry or a song lyric that expresses it?
As for metaphysical----I agree that as a concept it's metaphysical in the sense that America is not a process but an eternal Thing, of which America the Beautiful from Sea to Shining Sea is the incarnation.

Are you saying that , due to Americanism, The dogma of the transcendent eternal God was never viable in the US---that Americanism ousted the status of God?

America and France both had revolutions around the same period. America rebelled against foreign rule but France rebelled against its own ruling class. The practical result(I suggest) is that America became defiantly an entity : France continued as before----- historically sure of itself .

In the present day , America is split into A. the defiantly American core of the geographical middle versus B. the more Eurocentric Eastern and Western marine seaboards.

Trump uses the defiant and isolationist Americanism that characterises the geographical middle of America to further his own agenda of dictatorship

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 8:35 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:57 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:05 am

The current state (I call it the Post Truth era), was previously not a viable situation in the Land of the Free, because of many things: firstly, even crooked politicians had a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core. Second, party loyalists were partisan towards their branch of government against encroachment by other branches of government even if run by their own party members. And lastly, politicians had a natural sense of shame, in the sense that crooked individuals would attempt all sorts of shenanigans in secret, but would bow out should their misdeeds be uncovered. If this dogmatic belief in the core structure of the Nation is "metaphysical" in your sense of the word (which I think qualifies), then I agree with your assessment.

I know you yourself are American and hope you will excuse me for being objective.I am wondering about a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core.

what this feels like. As a Scot living in England and with my family background and schooling I feel as much European as I do British, so am unsure I really understand the bit quoted. Could you suggest a bit of poetry or a song lyric that expresses it?
As for metaphysical----I agree that as a concept it's metaphysical in the sense that America is not a process but an eternal Thing, of which America the Beautiful from Sea to Shining Sea is the incarnation.

Are you saying that , due to Americanism, The dogma of the transcendent eternal God was never viable in the US---that Americanism ousted the status of God?

America and France both had revolutions around the same period. America rebelled against foreign rule but France rebelled against its own ruling class. The practical result(I suggest) is that America became defiantly an entity : France continued as before----- historically sure of itself .

In the present day , America is split into A. the defiantly American core of the geographical middle versus B. the more Eurocentric Eastern and Western marine seaboards.

Trump uses the defiant and isolationist Americanism that characterises the geographical middle of America to further his own agenda of dictatorship

Sure, I'll give it a go. I'm wondering if your quandry over feeling more European than British, while residing in England is similar to my great pride in my state of residence yet my belief in my "country's core" as a sense of loyalty.

My subject was that crooked politicians in the past tried to further their personal agenda through illicit means, but had an understanding that the country's welfare was bigger than they were (which provided some guardrails on how far they were willing to break rules). Now crooked politicians are solely concerned with their self interest, don't care about the viability of the country or future generations, so the sky's the limit, do whatever is most expedient.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:50 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 8:35 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 10:57 am

I know you yourself are American and hope you will excuse me for being objective.I am wondering about a baseline love for the concept of the Nation, patriotism or a belief in the system's core.

what this feels like. As a Scot living in England and with my family background and schooling I feel as much European as I do British, so am unsure I really understand the bit quoted. Could you suggest a bit of poetry or a song lyric that expresses it?
As for metaphysical----I agree that as a concept it's metaphysical in the sense that America is not a process but an eternal Thing, of which America the Beautiful from Sea to Shining Sea is the incarnation.

Are you saying that , due to Americanism, The dogma of the transcendent eternal God was never viable in the US---that Americanism ousted the status of God?

America and France both had revolutions around the same period. America rebelled against foreign rule but France rebelled against its own ruling class. The practical result(I suggest) is that America became defiantly an entity : France continued as before----- historically sure of itself .

In the present day , America is split into A. the defiantly American core of the geographical middle versus B. the more Eurocentric Eastern and Western marine seaboards.

Trump uses the defiant and isolationist Americanism that characterises the geographical middle of America to further his own agenda of dictatorship

Sure, I'll give it a go. I'm wondering if your quandry over feeling more European than British, while residing in England is similar to my great pride in my state of residence yet my belief in my "country's core" as a sense of loyalty.

My subject was that crooked politicians in the past tried to further their personal agenda through illicit means, but had an understanding that the country's welfare was bigger than they were (which provided some guardrails on how far they were willing to break rules). Now crooked politicians are solely concerned with their self interest, don't care about the viability of the country or future generations, so the sky's the limit, do whatever is most expedient.

I wish I did feel pride in my present state of residence but I don't especially . I appreciate my present residence in many ways but I'd not call it pride. When I lived in Gibraltar I felt a sort of pride in my 'state of residence' due mainly to so many friendly people around me and the dramatic beauty of the place. The closest to national pride that I feel is my own father hoping and praying for the well- being of "the old country".My loyalty to my father and my gratitude to the country that has nurtured me is why I feel loyal to my country. I may say that father too was liberal in his appreciation of God wherever and whoever it manifested itself in.

Some educated academic once explained to me why the American federation thing is not like the European federation thing but I forget the explanation.

Not since I was a child did I feel emotional about singing the British National anthem My Europeanism as far as it goes amounts to friends from several other European countries. I enjoy your online company and so I feel a bit of loyalty to Oregon.

LuckyR wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 8:15 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:50 am

LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 8:35 am

Sure, I'll give it a go. I'm wondering if your quandry over feeling more European than British, while residing in England is similar to my great pride in my state of residence yet my belief in my "country's core" as a sense of loyalty.

My subject was that crooked politicians in the past tried to further their personal agenda through illicit means, but had an understanding that the country's welfare was bigger than they were (which provided some guardrails on how far they were willing to break rules). Now crooked politicians are solely concerned with their self interest, don't care about the viability of the country or future generations, so the sky's the limit, do whatever is most expedient.

I wish I did feel pride in my present state of residence but I don't especially . I appreciate my present residence in many ways but I'd not call it pride. When I lived in Gibraltar I felt a sort of pride in my 'state of residence' due mainly to so many friendly people around me and the dramatic beauty of the place. The closest to national pride that I feel is my own father hoping and praying for the well- being of "the old country".My loyalty to my father and my gratitude to the country that has nurtured me is why I feel loyal to my country. I may say that father too was liberal in his appreciation of God wherever and whoever it manifested itself in.

Some educated academic once explained to me why the American federation thing is not like the European federation thing but I forget the explanation.

Not since I was a child did I feel emotional about singing the British National anthem My Europeanism as far as it goes amounts to friends from several other European countries. I enjoy your online company and so I feel a bit of loyalty to Oregon.

I guess pretty much the US and the UK have drifted away from the (previous era's) reaching towards the Ideals they were (supposedly) founded upon. Those Ideals are what tend to inspire folks, toward loyalty, patriotism etc. So at the current time, some look around at the reality and lament the better days of the past, which wouldn't tend to foster loyalty and patiotism. Others acknowledge the downslide but hope for a return to their country's better days. And still others move to Scandinavia.

My subject was that crooked politicians in the past tried to further their personal agenda through illicit means, but had an understanding that the country's welfare was bigger than they were (which provided some guardrails on how far they were willing to break rules).