Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:15 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm We do not agree.

I did not think we did.

"After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

And your evidence bolstering your certainty of that is...

I'll wait.

Visit any morgue. There are endless specimens. That's just one form of evidence. Every dead thing is evidence, and anyone can examine them.

Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Easy. Jesus Christ.

But all your morgue has is bodies. There's nothing "in there." But where has it gone? That's what you don't know.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Easy. Jesus Christ.

Where, exactly, can I examine this, "Jesus Christ," with my own eyes?

Still waiting.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm But all your morgue has is bodies. There's nothing "in there." But where has it gone? That's what you don't know.

Life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of, "stuff." Life is an attribute; the attribute that differentiates those entities with it (organisms) from those without it (mere physical entities). When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere. It just ceases to be, just as the beauty of a flower that withers does not go anywhere but simply ceases to be.

Life is like good health. It's not a thing but a state. When someone becomes sick you would not ask, "where did their good health go," except as a form rhetoric, perhaps. When someone dies, it's just as absurd to ask, "where did their life go." One who dies is just no longer in the state of, "living,"

Life does not exist independently of the physical organisms it is an attribute of.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Easy. Jesus Christ.

Where, exactly, can I examine this, "Jesus Christ," with my own eyes?

At the Judgment. Then you'll get your chance.

But until then, nobody ever promised you that things you haven't personally seen (yet) "with your own eyes" are not real. I presume you realize there was a such thing as the Spanish Armada or the Napoleonic Wars?

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

Well, nobody claims it goes anywhere for paramecia or gibbons, unless one is a reincarnationist of some kind. But as regards human life, what's your evidence for that confidence of yours?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:15 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm We do not agree.

I did not think we did.

"After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

And your evidence bolstering your certainty of that is...

I'll wait.

Visit any morgue. There are endless specimens. That's just one form of evidence. Every dead thing is evidence, and anyone can examine them.

Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Death is not an experience. All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die . If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:12 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm
Easy. Jesus Christ.

Where, exactly, can I examine this, "Jesus Christ," with my own eyes?

At the Judgment. Then you'll get your chance.

But until then, nobody ever promised you that things you haven't personally seen (yet) "with your own eyes" are not real. I presume you realize there was a such thing as the Spanish Armada or the Napoleonic Wars?

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

Well, nobody claims it goes anywhere for paramecia or gibbons, unless one is a reincarnationist of some kind. But as regards human life, what's your evidence for that confidence of yours?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Confidence in what?

I have no confidence at all in the fairy tales told by mystics and other assorted charlatans. It's seems odd to me to call the fact I'm not gullible enough to fall for every form of superstitious belief others embrace, "confidence." I just have no reason whatsoever to swallow the nonsense you believe. It's like calling the fact I don't believe in astrology or magic potions confidence. It's stupid.

LIfe is life. There is not one kind of life for human beings and another kind for all other organisms. What's the evidence for that?

Your arguments grow weirder and weirder.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:25 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:13 pm
As usual, you conveniently drop the context. My comment was in response to yours:

I didn't "drop the context" at all.

You made a comment about using your own mind, and I pointed out that one can think one is using one's own mind, when one is actually merely parrotting an argument one accidentally picked up from somebody else, or else triumphantly trumpeting one's prejudices, oblivious to the fact that better ideas exist at all.

Formal education can be a curative to that, if it helps one realize that there are plenty of smarter ideas out there, or that one's own ideas are more derivative than original. It can sometimes fix hubris.

"Humility," is another form of aberration. "Humility," is the false belief that self-abnegation is a kind of virtue.

No. Humility is a proportional sense of one's own abilities and achievements. That's all.

We do not agree.

How could you, logically, NOT agree that what "immanuel can" did was just POINT OUT and SHOW that 'your claim' about "using one's own mind" could just be the views or ideas of 'ANOTHER'.

Although "immanuel can" went off on some other tangent, which, by the way, was just ATTEMPTING to DEFLECT from thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things', this does not take away from what "immanuel can" was just POINTING OUT and SHOWING, in regards to what you said.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm "After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

NOT NECESSARILY SO, AT ALL.

As ALREADY SHOWN and PROVED True.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm On this subject, everything else you have to say is just so much superstitious nonsense. There is no way to discuss it reasonably. It's like discussing how many fairies are in the world of trolls. Good grief!

Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just how BELIEF, itself, completely and utterly STOPS one from being able to learn and see MORE.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
Death is not an experience.

That's right. It's the end or cessation of all experience.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die.

Where do they go? What would an, "experience," that no one is having be, since the dead don't experience anything. How could you possibly know this. It's mystical nonsense.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

Do you have any idea how absurd that is. Are on some kind of drugs? If you have a headache, and die, your headache continues to exist in some mystical, "absolute experience," someplace, somehow, and you know this because the little man that lives in your ear told, right?

That's a lot of woo-woo.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:15 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm We do not agree.

I did not think we did.

"After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

And your evidence bolstering your certainty of that is...

I'll wait.

Visit any morgue. There are endless specimens. That's just one form of evidence. Every dead thing is evidence, and anyone can examine them.

Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

You will BOTH be 'waiting' FOREVER. This is because of the way you BOTH are currently LOOKING AT and SEEING 'things'.

By the way, what EXACTLY is so-called "dead", when you visit morgues?

If you would like to LOOK INTO this subject MORE, then you will be ABLE TO learn and understand MORE as well.

If you START by explaining where EXACTLY is the "evidence" of "death" in a morgue, then we can DISCUSS 'what' EXACTLY is so-called "dead".

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:51 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
Death is not an experience.

That's right. It's the end or cessation of all experience.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
All the experiences that ever happened and ever will happen don't vanish when all the individuals die.

Where do they go? What would an, "experience," that no one is having be, since the dead don't experience anything. How could you possibly know this. It's mystical nonsense.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:58 am\
If all the living beings in the universe ceased to live their experiences would exist in the Absolute experience which is not subject to time or place. If you understand the theory of existence called idealism you may understand what I mean when I say "the Absolute".

Do you have any idea how absurd that is. Are on some kind of drugs? If you have a headache, and die, your headache continues to exist in some mystical, "absolute experience," someplace, somehow, and you know this because the little man that lives in your ear told, right?

That's a lot of woo-woo.

The Absolute is not mystical it's the logical conclusion that philosophical idealists arrive at. If you begin by reckoning that time, space and causality are human constructs, perhaps synthetic a priori ideas, then you can begin to think of a state of being that transcends these categories.Yes, your headache ,and the fall of the sparrow, are never lost. And if a kind person who sympathises with you having a headache, or if a small child feels sorry for the poor little dead bird, these experiences too are never lost.

Age wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:49 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:07 pm "After life," is rightly called death. It is when there is no longer life.

NOT NECESSARILY SO, AT ALL.

If there is still life, "after life," what is it, "after?"

To everyone except mystics and idiots, "after," something means following something that has ended, something that no longer is. Also, to everyone except mystics and idiots, when life no longer is, it is called death.

Are you a mystic? are you an idiot?--forgive me for repeating the question.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:12 pm But as regards human life, what's your evidence for that confidence of yours?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Confidence in what?

You said, "

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

I want to know how you know that. You seem to think you do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:10 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:33 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:12 pm But as regards human life, what's your evidence for that confidence of yours?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Confidence in what?

You said, "

When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere.

I want to know how you know that. You seem to think you do.

Your kidding.

i don't believe you, because I've already explained life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of stuff. There is nothing to go anywhere.

When a fire goes out, where does the fire go? When you turn a light on, where does the dark go. When the sun goes behind a cloud, where does your shadow go. When you die you are just no longer alive. You, "aliveness," doesn't go anywhere, it just ceases to be an attribute of the physical entity which was your body.

Duh!

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Easy. Jesus Christ.

"jesus christ" is 'what', EXACTLY?

Your INABILITY to EXPLAIN and CLARIFY will SHOW how MUCH or how LITTLE you REALLY KNOW.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm But all your morgue has is bodies.

True, and the EXACT SAME things happen to those bodies EXACTLY LIKE ALL of the bodies two or even four thousand years ago.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm There's nothing "in there." But where has it gone? That's what you don't know.

And if you DO KNOW, then WHERE has 'it' gone, EXACTLY?

Oh, and by the way, what is 'it', EXACTLY, anyway?

Your ABILITY to answer, or your INABILITY to answer ANY thing AT ALL, WILL SHOW us just how MUCH or how LITTLE you REALLY do KNOW or NOT KNOW on this subject.

So, I will AGAIN that it is much BETTER for the speaker or writer to have the ACTUAL PROOF to be able to back up and support their CLAIMS BEFORE they even begin considering expressing their CLAIMS out openly.

So,

Firstly, 'what', EXACTLY, is 'it'? And,

Secondly, 'where', EXACTLY, has 'it' gone?

In face, 'where' could 'it' POSSIBLY even go?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:40 pm Provide a specimen of your view that I can directly examine.

I'll wait.

Easy. Jesus Christ.

Where, exactly, can I examine this, "Jesus Christ," with my own eyes?

Still waiting.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:37 pm But all your morgue has is bodies. There's nothing "in there." But where has it gone? That's what you don't know.

Life is not a thing, or substance, or some kind of, "stuff." Life is an attribute; the attribute that differentiates those entities with it (organisms) from those without it (mere physical entities). When an organism dies, life doesn't "go," anywhere. It just ceases to be,

When you say, "life just ceases to be", do you mean to ADD more to this like something similar to; "an attribute of that physical thing"? Or, do you, literally, mean, "life just ceases to be". Full stop?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pmjust as the beauty of a flower that withers does not go anywhere but simply ceases to be.

But only to SOME people 'the beauty' ceases to be. See, SOME people SEE 'beauty' where you do not, and obviously can NOT.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pmLife is like good health. It's not a thing but a state. When someone becomes sick you would not ask, "where did their good health go," except as a form rhetoric, perhaps. When someone dies, it's just as absurd to ask, "where did their life go."

To me, anyway, it is just as ABSURD to say, "when someone dies". What EXACTLY is 'someone', to you?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pmOne who dies is just no longer in the state of, "living,"

So, what is that 'one' in 'now', and, 'what' EXACTLY is 'one', which can, supposedly, transfer between these different states?

You make the CLAIMS here, are you now ABLE to back up and support those CLAIMS.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:52 pmLife does not exist independently of the physical organisms it is an attribute of.

And, would I be right in that, to you, only SOME physical organisms have the attribute of 'life'?

If this is correct, then what do you USE to DIFFERENTIATE between the physical things WITH the attribute you call 'life' from those physical things WITHOUT the attribute of 'life', to you?