Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:19 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:10 am
What I had been discussing had been laid out right from the beginning, i.e. the topic of chattel slavery. You are forcing your way to change the subject.
Not at all.
Rather, I'm insisting on the right definition for the thing you talked about, "slavery." If you want to eliminate from your consideration many of the types of slavery there are, and pretend that the only real form of slavery is something like transporting people from Africa to North America, then your conclusions are going to be based on a false premise. Slavery is much more than you are prepared to admit, and much worse than you are prepared to acknowledge, and much more prevalent today than it ever was before.
There you go again,
Where did I,
"
pretend that the only real form of slavery is something like transporting people from Africa to North America, "
As had insisted I had only intended to discuss one type of slavery i.e. 'chattel slavery' that is differentiated for example in the Wiki article, i.e.
1.1 Chattel slavery
1.2 Bonded labour
1.3 Dependents
1.4 Forced labour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
Btw, have you ever done an academic thesis, either graduate, masters or PhD level.
If you ever try to "swallow" the whole lot of slavery in one go and make a point, your supervisor will surely have to tell you off.
In my case I have attempted to find the correlation between chattel slavery [sufficiently specific] and moral progress via the internal "programmed" moral potential.
Since you want to discuss slavery-in-general that cover all types of slavery I have raised the following OP which you are running away from.
Slavery [all forms] Much Mitigated since 10,000 years ago?
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34546
When the variable is too general it is much difficult to draw conclusions and the analysis would have to be more extensive and complex.
The approach in any problem or issue is to breakdown the whole problem into manageable smaller units. As such to be effective you still need to analyze each category of slavery [no conflation] and do a summary of all the variables involved.
Given my conclusion with 'chattel slavery' which is the type with the greatest weightages, I can extrapolate the moral progress to the other types of slavery despite the larger numbers at present [note my argument on relative % to the related population].
That's a basic fact you have to keep in your calculation, if you want to be able to make any remotely true statement about what the present condition of worldwide slavery indicates about "the internal moral law."
Given my conclusion with 'chattel slavery' which is the type with the greatest weightages, I can extrapolate the moral progress to the other types of slavery despite the larger numbers at present [note my argument on relative % to the related population].
On that definition, there are more slaves in the world now than at any time in previous history. So no, the human race is not getting better on that score. They're getting worse. And since much of today's slavery is outright human trafficking, sexual exploitation, and child labour, it's even worse than what you are trying to narrow the definition to cover. What traditional slave would not prefer to work in a field rather than to be serially raped to death instead?
Now we are dealing with a different 'kettle of fish', i.e. taking into all forms of slavery per your definition above [which I agree].
Well, there never was a reason for excluding them. So I was correct all along.
You just cannot based on merely quantum at present but must compare the relative % of the world's population.
That's not sensible.
That would only be true if you assume that slavery is an impulse equally distributed across all historical cultures and populations, which is evidently untrue, even now.
Just like the impulse for an illusory God to deal with cognitive dissonance, psychopathy, etc. the impulse to enslave other humans is a resultant of being human, so it is all over the world, i.e. China, India, Africa, other parts of Asia, the Americas, etc.
Btw, China and India's population represent almost half the world's population and all types of slavery were very prevalent in these two countries.
For there are only certain kinds of slaves in, for instance, the modern West, but what you are calling "chattel slaves" still in North Africa and other places, and so on. So taking the world population and using it to divide the number of world slaves tells us nothing accurate...especially if you exclude most actual slaves from your calculation, by redefining "slavery" to exclude things like child slavery, those held in forced, unpaid labour arrangments like captive migrants and prison slaves, rape slaves, and child "brides."
I believe dividing the number of slaves by world population do give us an idea some idea of the moral progress.
One has to be more analytical in one's deliberation.
What I have presented is;
Total slavery <200 years ago = [high % of chattel slavery + lower % modern slavery] =X
Total slavery >200 years ago = [lower % of chattel slaver + higher % modern slavery] = Y
Point is chattel slavery is more severe than modern slavery.
I note the % of X over total population is higher than % of Y over total population.
As such there is moral progress.
And when we factor in the legality factor, there is greater moral progress.
Another point which I had mentioned is in the past all the above types of slavery were not restricted by laws but at the present all the above slavery are illegal.
https://theconversation.com/slavery-is- ... rch-115596
But let's take that claim, and test it.
In the US, for example, slavery is totally illegal. It has been, since the Emancipation Proclamation. Is it then your claim that there have been no slaves in the US?
https://theexodusroad.com/does-slavery- ... ica-today/
So since slavery still exists in the US, does the mere having of laws against it prove that slavery is being rejected? Apparently not: for people can disobey laws, even where such exist.[/quote]
No, I have not claimed slavery is totally illegal is equated with no slaves at all, that would be stupid of me.
It is common knowledge, even with capital punishment or death penalty there will still be people committing the related crimes.
My point is the legal deterrence is an indication of progress over having no laws at all against slavery, i.e. a free for all re slavery.
It is very evident there are lesser chattel slaves around the world as compared to the time when there were no laws to deter it. This is a mark of progress. You deny this?
Due to the inherent impulse in a percentile of people to enslave others, there will be slavers but that they have to do it 'underground' the numbers will be lesser than before there were laws to deter it.
Apparently, you're mistaking the public morality of legislators for the actual morality of the people. They're two very different things.
Each legislator will have his personal attitude and preferences.
But in order to win votes most the legislators will act on the pulse on will of the majority.
Dictatorships are lesser in modern history, even dictators has to flow with the will of the people to avoid being overthrown. Passing laws to deter slavery is not a significant issue for dictators.
Therefore the passing of laws against slavery reflect the pulse and will of the majority which is driven by the gradual unfoldment of the inherent moral potential within ALL humans which has nothing to do with an ILLUSORY GOD!