Philosophy Now Forum

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:56 pm I did answer your question,...

Actually, you didn't. You didn't say if you think a newspaper editor can dictate your innoculation to you. Do you?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:09 pm

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:56 pm I did answer your question,...

Actually, you didn't. You didn't say if you think a newspaper editor can dictate your innoculation to you. Do you?

I don't consider it a credible question and I explained why. That's my answer!

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:09 pm

Vitruvius wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:56 pm I did answer your question,...

Actually, you didn't. You didn't say if you think a newspaper editor can dictate your innoculation to you. Do you?

I don't consider it a credible question and I explained why. That's my answer!

Then that's a non-answer.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:47 pmThe employer himself has no justification in making that demand...

So comrade Can, you assert that employers are not autonomous.

IC, you make many good points, but you’ve submitted that Covid vaccines are unnecessary, ineffective and experimental.

They are only unnecessary if the goal is not to avoid a serious case of Covid.

Clinical trials have shown them to be safe and effective.

They are no longer experimental. They have the full approval of the FDA. Covid vaccines are as safe and effective as Flu vaccines are. They received the same level of scrutiny as the annual compilation of the Flu vaccine has received each and every year since inception of the first iteration.

Your arguments, aside from the use of facts that are unfactual, have some value. You should respectfully withdraw your fraudulent claims in order to give greater strength to your other statements.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:38 am IC, you make many good points, but you’ve submitted that Covid vaccines are unnecessary, ineffective and experimental.

I haven't said "ineffective." I've said "unproven, untested, and of unknown long-term side effects." And all those things are surely true.

Clinical trials have shown them to be safe and effective.

Let's see those trials.

They have the full approval of the FDA.

The FDA can't make up it's mind. It clearly is fishing around, hoping to get things right.

They told us J&J or AstraZeneca were good vaccines; now they say they aren't good enough, or are even bad, in the case of AZ. They told us we couldn't mix vaccines...then we could...now we can't. They said two doses were enough...and now that boosters will be required indefinitely...and so on. They said masks work...then we needed two...then vaccinated people are immune...then that they are not, and can even be infectious....and so on. They said people couldn't go to church or a ball game, but it's just fine if they riot or cross the border instead. Who is making this stuff up?

The one thing that is clear is that they really don't know what they are doing. Anybody who keeps reversing themselves betrays that fact for sure.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:29 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:38 am IC, you make many good points, but you’ve submitted that Covid vaccines are unnecessary, ineffective and experimental.

I haven't said "ineffective." I've said "unproven, untested, and of unknown long-term side effects." And all those things are surely true.

You are still wrong!
They are proven because effective. They are tested.
5.88 billion doses have been administered and the case numbers for vaccinated people are tiny compared to the unvaccinated.
What better test do you want?

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:13 pm 5.88 billion doses have been administered and the case numbers for vaccinated people are tiny compared to the unvaccinated.
What better test do you want?

I want proof that they work for young people. I want proof they don't harm pregnant women, as well. I want proof that they do not have serious, long-term detriments, and that can only come with a lot more time, no matter how many you vaccinate. I want a control group in place (as any good scientist would certainly insist). I want proof the vaccines actually save the lives of the elderly. I want proof that the statistics the media and government are telling us are honest (Actually, never mind that one: I already have concrete proof that they're not.)

I want explanations as to why the "orthodox" perspective on which vacciness work, for how long, and in which combinations changes more often than a traffic light. I want to know how many supposed "vaccinations" are going to be insisted upon until we have achieved sufficient resistance to COVID. And I want to know about natural and herd immunities, too: what is their relative value, in comparison to the vaccinated "immunity" that doesn't seem to last more than a few months.

And before I tell people they have to give up their rights, their personal liberties, their medical details and their careers, that they are doing so for something that is not going to turn out to be a fraud, like some of the proffered vaccines have already turned out to be.

In other words, I want the kinds of tests and evidence that any actual, ethical scientist would surely demand.

Seems reasonable.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:29 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:38 am IC, you make many good points, but you’ve submitted that Covid vaccines are unnecessary, ineffective and experimental.

I haven't said "ineffective." I've said "unproven, untested, and of unknown long-term side effects." And all those things are surely true.

Clinical trials have shown them to be safe and effective.

Let's see those trials.

They have the full approval of the FDA.

The FDA can't make up it's mind. It clearly is fishing around, hoping to get things right.

They told us J&J or AstraZeneca were good vaccines; now they say they aren't good enough, or are even bad, in the case of AZ. They told us we couldn't mix vaccines...then we could...now we can't. They said two doses were enough...and now that boosters will be required indefinitely...and so on. They said masks work...then we needed two...then vaccinated people are immune...then that they are not, and can even be infectious....and so on. They said people couldn't go to church or a ball game, but it's just fine if they riot or cross the border instead. Who is making this stuff up?

The one thing that is clear is that they really don't know what they are doing. Anybody who keeps reversing themselves betrays that fact for sure.

Your words were “necessary”, “effective” and “non-experimental”.

But you’re right. We should view the studies for ourselves. I did not.

What you say about they is true of the CDC, not the FDA, which is the agency that approves medicines. The CDC’s advice should be disregarded.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:29 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:13 pm 5.88 billion doses have been administered and the case numbers for vaccinated people are tiny compared to the unvaccinated.
What better test do you want?

I want proof that they work for young people.

Young people are not another species.

I want proof they don't harm pregnant women, as well.

millions of pregnant women are among the 5.88 billion doses.

I want proof that they do not have serious, long-term detriments, and that can only come with a lot more time, no matter how many you vaccinate.

Why would they? It's only modified covid. We've been in contact with corona viruses for millions of years.

I want a control group in place (as any good scientist would certainly insist). I want proof the vaccines actually save the lives of the elderly. I want proof that the statistics the media and government are telling us are honest (Actually, never mind that one: I already have concrete proof that they're not.)

We have five billion so far. Big enough for you?

I want explanations as to why the "orthodox" perspective on which vacciness work, for how long, and in which combinations changes more often than a traffic light. I want to know how many supposed "vaccinations" are going to be insisted upon until we have achieved sufficient resistance to COVID. And I want to know about natural and herd immunities, too: what is their relative value, in comparison to the vaccinated "immunity" that doesn't seem to last more than a few months.

Ranting meaningless bollocks

And before I tell people they have to give up their rights, their personal liberties, their medical details and their careers, that they are doing so for something that is not going to turn out to be a fraud, like some of the proffered vaccines have already turned out to be.

More bollocks. Everyone is free to refuse the vaccine.
No vaccines are fraudulent.

In other words, I want the kinds of tests and evidence that any actual, ethical scientist would surely demand.

Seems reasonable.

No. You are like a little baby
I want, I want, I want, I want....
I want fish to be pink and the sky to be polka dot.

“…more often than a traffic light?” Really? Hyperbole is an acceptable convention of writing and speech, but you shouldn’t need to use literary tricks if what you say is reasonable on its own.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:30 pm Your words were “necessary”, “effective” and “non-experimental”.

Yes, they were: but in this context. "That would be true if, and only if, the vaccine was actually necessary, effective, and non-experimental." I was speaking of the interlocutor's overconfident assumption that we already know such things. We do not.

So my point was simply that we do no KNOW whether these particular vaccines are "effective," that they are certainly "experimental," and that if they are not effective, then they are also not "necessary." I was not concluding that it is so: I suggesting that it might well be so. And I was pointing out that we don't know what the interlocutor was talking as if we know.

We really don't know. We don't have good, scientific evidence. We haven't had either time, a cross-section of affected persons, or a control group. And any honest scientist will tell you that that means we don't have a trustworthy test to know if and how these vaccines work.

But you’re right. We should view the studies for ourselves. I did not.

It's okay. I get it. It's very comforting to think that we have been saved us from a crisis we're repeatedly told is deadly and requires us to inhibit all normal activities. We want a solution. We want out. We all want that. Heck, I'd take it, if we had it.

But we don't get it by simply believing we have it. We get it when it really has been gotten. And to know that it has, we need the data -- in many cases, data we haven't had time even to gather.

COVID IS FAKE..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-58376709

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-jab.html

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-fit ... g-12373389

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:14 pm

Aha! It was just a ploy by the Democrats all along.