Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:08 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:15 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:58 pm
The opposite is true.

The man who says "Everyone lies sometimes" has, for the moment, told a truth.

Being a liar does not mean never telling the truth.

Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "sometimes"?

On the other hand, the man who says "I have never lied" is most probably doing it at the present moment.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:06 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:22 pm I suppose some people perhaps could and perhaps do fake it but I've met a couple of people who stated they had gender dysphoria and the ones I've met seemed to be on the level. I mean, why would anyone put themselves through all the persecution and sour looks if they could avoid it and just be "normal"?

Well, if it's fake, we surely shouldn't "accommodate" it.

But if it's "gender dysphoria," then it's a mental illness...and we should help them get free of it.

I mean, what kind of a psycho would encourage mentally ill people...say, somebody with delusions or suicidal ideation....that what they were experiencing was "normal"?

In any case, we would need a rationale other than "gender dysphoria" to rationalize "accommodation."

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 am I said:
"a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar,"
and you said,
"The opposite is true." The opposite of, "is a liar, " is, "is not a liar."

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:08 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:15 pm
Being a liar does not mean never telling the truth.

Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "sometimes"?

On the other hand, the man who says "I have never lied" is most probably doing it at the present moment.

Take deep breath. I said:
"a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar,"
and you said,
"The opposite is true." The opposite of, "is a liar, " is, "is not a liar."

Which means you were really saying, "The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is not a liar.

I told you I was sure it was inadvertent. I'm sure it's not what you intended.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:06 pm

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:22 pm I suppose some people perhaps could and perhaps do fake it but I've met a couple of people who stated they had gender dysphoria and the ones I've met seemed to be on the level. I mean, why would anyone put themselves through all the persecution and sour looks if they could avoid it and just be "normal"?

Well, if it's fake, we surely shouldn't "accommodate" it.

But if it's "gender dysphoria," then it's a mental illness...and we should help them get free of it.

I mean, what kind of a psycho would encourage mentally ill people...say, somebody with delusions or suicidal ideation....that what they were experiencing was "normal"?

In any case, we would need a rationale other than "gender dysphoria" to rationalize "accommodation."

So you believe that people with gender dysphoria just need to be persuaded to stop believing that they would be happier as a person of the opposite sex, I take it?

What if their brain is just too chemically confused to be fixed?

Should we not try to be somewhat accomodating? I mean, we have wheelchair ramps and things for people with physical disabilities, what about people with mental disabilities who just can't be cured for whatever reason? What's the significant harm if Joe wants to be called Josephine?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:11 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 am I said:
"a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar,"
and you said,
"The opposite is true." The opposite of, "is a liar, " is, "is not a liar."

Well, he's certainly not lying in that utterance. So it's hard to see why it matters if you characterize him as also being a "liar." In that case, you're just being ad hominem, because in this instance, he's telling the truth.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:25 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:11 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 am I said:
"a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar,"
and you said,
"The opposite is true." The opposite of, "is a liar, " is, "is not a liar."

Well, he's certainly not lying in that utterance. So it's hard to see why it matters if you characterize him as also being a "liar." In that case, you're just being ad hominem, because in this instance, he's telling the truth.

Whatever!

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:15 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:49 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:08 pm

Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "sometimes"?

On the other hand, the man who says "I have never lied" is most probably doing it at the present moment.

Take deep breath. I said:
"a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar,"
and you said,
"The opposite is true." The opposite of, "is a liar, " is, "is not a liar."

Which means you were really saying, "The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is not a liar.

I told you I was sure it was inadvertent. I'm sure it's not what you intended.

So if someone who admits they lie sometimes is a "liar" what does that make someone who pretends to be perfect when they're not? I mean, have you never lied to anyone ever? Would you not lie under certain circumstances? It seems to me that if someone who admits they lie sometimes is necessarily a "liar" then we're all probably "liars." I suppose it could be like calling a spade a spade but it seems harsh not to credit people at all for the times they tell the truth.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:46 am My point was only that those who justify anything by claiming some characteristic is universal are admitting they have that characteristic. I'm not blaming anyone for anything, they are accusing themselves.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:41 pm So you think Rachel Dolezal can't be black, people who "transable" themselves are ... what? Mentally ill? Or just fine? And you think you can identify as a salmon or a rhodedendron?

mickthinks wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:46 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:34 pm A sad tale indeed that has almost nuthin' to do with delusional men believin' they're women. Schinegger was/is a hermaphrodite: his transition was corrective, not mutilatin'.

Are you saying that Schinegger was not delusional when he believed he was a woman, Henry? If you are then how are you deciding who is delusional and who isn't?

Because that is also what this thread is about.

mickthinks wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:59 am Beware the man who makes broad moral judgments.

a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar.
b. The man who says, "everyone steals sometimes," is a thief.
c. The man who says, "everyone cheats sometimes," is a cheat.

And the man who says everyone is crazy is a nut.


Hmmm ... that looks like four ad hominem fallacies primed and loaded.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:39 am

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:46 am My point was only that those who justify anything by claiming some characteristic is universal are admitting they have that characteristic. I'm not blaming anyone for anything, they are accusing themselves.

That depends.

It depends on whether the phrase "has told a lie" and "is a liar" have the same substance and scope.

But one is a description of an action, and the other is an indictment of a whole character. One points to a moment in time, and the other to a habitual pattern of life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:24 am

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:06 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:06 pm
Well, if it's fake, we surely shouldn't "accommodate" it.

But if it's "gender dysphoria," then it's a mental illness...and we should help them get free of it.

I mean, what kind of a psycho would encourage mentally ill people...say, somebody with delusions or suicidal ideation....that what they were experiencing was "normal"?

In any case, we would need a rationale other than "gender dysphoria" to rationalize "accommodation."

So you believe that people with gender dysphoria just need to be persuaded to stop believing that they would be happier as a person of the opposite sex, I take it?

Why would you "take" that?

That makes no sense. If somebody is a schizophrenic, would you suppose my proposed solution would be "to persuade him to stop believing" something? If somebody was a neurotic, or delusional, or compulsive, why would you suppose I would choose such a therapy?

An odd assumption, indeed.

What if their brain is just too chemically confused to be fixed?

How do we determine that they are a hopeless case? Wouldn't you rather believe that they could be helped? And even if they couldn't, would "accommodating" be a good response?

It's hard to see why it would be. If a man is an incurable pedophile or psychopath, are you now arguing that all we can do is "accommodate" him?

Should we not try to be somewhat accomodating? I mean, we have wheelchair ramps and things for people with physical disabilities, what about people with mental disabilities who just can't be cured for whatever reason? What's the significant harm if Joe wants to be called Josephine?

Well, you've now essentially condemned all body dysmorphic people as incurable, Gary, if you analogize them with, say the deaf, or blind people or paraplegics. But why should we think they're incurable? Are not many cognitive conditions curable,or manageable at least, through things like cognitive and behavioural therapy? Some don't even require that much intervention.

But even if we grant their situation to be incurable (which I think is no kindness at all to them), why would we say "accommodating" is what we need to do? As I say, we don't think it's a good idea to just go ahead and "accommodate" people who have other kinds of delusions, so why would we make a unique exception here?

And there is, of course, the separate question you raise of whether or not you have a duty to call Joe "Josephine." Why are we now saying that you have a duty to behave in a way as deluded as he is? How did this deluded person get such power? Why would we grant that?

So make the case for accommodation, if you can, Gary: how would "accommodating" make body dysmorphia better?