There is no 'Matter of Fact' [Analytic].

[Skepdick]

If all he's saying is that some people have the opinions that they do, then that's fine. It in no way amounts to any normative obtaining (in the sense that it would be the case that anyone ought to do anything).

It amounts to a normative in every pragmatically relevant way.

A bunch of people hold the opinions that I have to pay taxes. It in no way amounts to a normative that I have to pay them... But it does.

Unless you have deep pockets in which case, I know people who can help you out to avoid paying taxes.

[Terrapin Station]

It amounts to a normative in every pragmatically relevant way.

It doesn't amount to a normative in any way except with respect to whatever individuals think "I ought to do x."

A bunch of people hold the opinions that I have to pay taxes. It in no way amounts to a normative that I have to pay them... But it does.

No it doesn't, especially not as a normative (where it would amount to saying "I ought to pay taxes" or "I should pay taxes.")

It's simply a matter of whether you feel you should/ought to pay taxes. But that's not actually a normative that we can verify that applies to anyone in general. It's just a fact that you feel as you do, if you feel that way.

[Skepdick]

It doesn't amount to a normative in any way except with respect to whatever individuals think "I ought to do x."

Lol. So except for all the ways it's a normative, it's not a normative.

Clown.

No it doesn't, especially not as a normative (where it would amount to saying "I ought to pay taxes" or "I should pay taxes."

But you DO and WILL pay taxes. And so it's normative anyway.

It's simply a matter of whether you feel you should/ought to pay taxes.

It's also a matter of whether you have the resources necessary to avoid prison.

But that's not actually a normative that we can verify that applies to anyone in general. It's just a fact that you feel as you do, if you feel that way.

Of course you can verify it! Stop paying taxes. If it's not a normative, then nothing different will happen.

[Terrapin Station]

Lol. So except for all the ways it's a normative, it's not a normative.

That you personally think/say "I ought to do x" has no implication for (a) what you ought to do, or (b) what anyone else ought to do.

We can call it a "normative" if we're naming any "I ought to do x" utterance a normative, but it implies nothing about what anyone ought to or should do.

[Skepdick]

That you personally think/say "I ought to do x" has no implication for (a) what you ought to do, or (b) what anyone else ought to do.

We can call it a "normative" if we're naming any "I ought to do x" utterance a normative, but it implies nothing about what anyone ought to or should do.

OK. Go ahead and verify that.

Stop paying taxes and confirm the lack of implications.

[Terrapin Station]

That you personally think/say "I ought to do x" has no implication for (a) what you ought to do, or (b) what anyone else ought to do.

We can call it a "normative" if we're naming any "I ought to do x" utterance a normative, but it implies nothing about what anyone ought to or should do.

OK. Go ahead and verify that.

Stop paying taxes and confirm the lack of implications.

No one is saying that not paying taxes has no implications for what might happen.

The issue is whether anyone ought to do anything or whether anything ought to happen.

[Terrapin Station]

That you personally think/say "I ought to do x" has no implication for (a) what you ought to do, or (b) what anyone else ought to do.

We can call it a "normative" if we're naming any "I ought to do x" utterance a normative, but it implies nothing about what anyone ought to or should do.

OK. Go ahead and verify that.

Stop paying taxes and confirm the lack of implications.

Let's say that if you don't pay your taxes, you're imprisoned, and those are the only two things that would actually happen (just to simplify this; making it less simple wouldn't at all help your side).

Well, ought you pay your taxes?

Or ought you go to prison?

It depends on what you desire, what you care about. There's no fact of the matter that you ought to do one or the other. It's just a matter of what you prefer. Most people are obviously going to prefer not going to prison, but that doesn't make it a fact in any way that one ought to pay their taxes.

[Skepdick]

No one is saying that not paying taxes has no implications for what might happen.

You keep saying it!

You keep saying that "I ought not pay taxes" has no implication.

Show us!

The issue is whether anyone ought to do anything or whether anything ought to happen.

The issue is implication.

You are claiming that "I ought not pay my taxes" has NO implication.

[Skepdick]

It depends on what you desire, what you care about. There's no fact of the matter that you ought to do one or the other. It's just a matter of what you prefer. Most people are obviously going to prefer not going to prison, but that doesn't make it a fact in any way that one ought to pay their taxes.

So there's such a thing about fact of preference.

e.g facts about values.

[Terrapin Station]

It depends on what you desire, what you care about. There's no fact of the matter that you ought to do one or the other. It's just a matter of what you prefer. Most people are obviously going to prefer not going to prison, but that doesn't make it a fact in any way that one ought to pay their taxes.

So there's such a thing about fact of preference.

e.g facts about values.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THERE AREN'T FACTS THAT PEOPLE THINK THINGS LIKE "I OUGHT TO X" or "I PREFER X" or "I VALUE X" etc.

How many times does that need to be explained to you?

[Skepdick]

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THERE AREN'T FACTS THAT PEOPLE THINK THINGS LIKE "I OUGHT TO X" or "I PREFER X" or "I VALUE X" etc.

Then WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!?!

How many times does that need to be explained to you?

As many times as you need to explain to me what the concept of "ought" means!

Because it's incoherent horseshit!

[Terrapin Station]

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THERE AREN'T FACTS THAT PEOPLE THINK THINGS LIKE "I OUGHT TO X" or "I PREFER X" or "I VALUE X" etc.

Then WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!?!

Holy crap. I've been saying it over and over.

[Skepdick]

Holy crap. I've been saying it over and over.

Perhaps try saying it coherently?

Use different words. The ones you've tried so far clearly don't work!

[Terrapin Station]

I'd have to go step by step over some very simple things.

For example:

Joe thinks, "I ought to pay my taxes."

Does this have an implication for Frank and whether he ought to pay his taxes or not?

[Skepdick]

I'd have to go step by step over some very simple things.

For example:

Joe thinks, "I ought to pay my taxes."

Does this have an implication for Frank and whether he ought to pay his taxes or not?

In Universe A: It has an implication.
In Universe B: It doesn't have an implication.

What measurement/test/verification do you suggest we perform to distinguish which of the two universes we exist in?