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Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:13 pm
by attofishpi
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:44 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:45 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:34 am
Have you eaten the apple?
What "Apple" ?
It's DOWNright appallin that U think it was a measly apple. State where the fruit was an APPLE!
..if you were after a fruit - FIGurE it out.
btw:- Do they look like a pair of apples or a pair of pears?
https://www.androcies.com/galleryscroll.php
I just want to know.
So does every 1 that has attempted to BARK up the TREE of KNOW_LEDGE - SAP~! eventually we LEAVE - just to ROOT.
(AND - DNA - create more SAPLINGS)
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:18 pm
by bahman
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:13 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:44 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:45 pm
What "Apple" ?
It's DOWNright appallin that U think it was a measly apple. State where the fruit was an APPLE!
..if you were after a fruit - FIGurE it out.
btw:- Do they look like a pair of apples or a pair of pears?
https://www.androcies.com/galleryscroll.php
I just want to know.
So does every 1 that has attempted to BARK up the TREE of KNOW_LEDGE - SAP~! eventually we LEAVE - just to ROOT.
What do you mean? I can find the truth myself. Everybody can.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:57 pm
by attofishpi
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:18 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:13 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:44 pm
I just want to know.
So does every 1 that has attempted to BARK up the TREE of KNOW_LEDGE - SAP~! eventually we LEAVE - just to ROOT.
What do you mean? I can find the truth myself. Everybody can.
C NOW mean is an interesting word. . . . beyond that, I don't know what U average by TRUTH. . . . and by EVERYBODY i think U mean SOULS and their AVATARS that somehow matter.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:01 pm
by bahman
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:57 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:18 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:13 pm
So does every 1 that has attempted to BARK up the TREE of KNOW_LEDGE - SAP~! eventually we LEAVE - just to ROOT.
What do you mean? I can find the truth myself. Everybody can.
C NOW mean is an interesting word. . . .
Yes. What is the truth?
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:57 pm
beyond that, I don't know what U average by TRUTH. . . .
I know some part of the truth. I am 53 so long way ahead to know the rest.
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:57 pm
and by EVERYBODY i think U mean SOULS and their AVATARS that somehow matter.
Truth is plain and simple so by everybody, I mean all human beings who are interested.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:33 pm
by Immanuel Can
What's the argument supposed to be here: that a belief is valid if it offers "benefits"?
That seems implausible.
Polytheism offers the "benefit" of being able to placate demi-gods.
Witchcraft offers the "benefit" of a feeling of magical power.
Nazism offers the "benefit" of national and genetic pride.
Atheism offers the "benefit" of a feeling of freedom from divine accountability.
Agnosticism offers the "benefit" of a feeling of not having to declare oneself for anything.
Totalitarianism offers the "benefits" of security and freedom from agonies of choice.
Legalism offers the "benefit" of rules to follow.
Socialism offers the "benefit" of forced equality.
Racism offers the "benefit" of making your group better than others.
Sexism offers the "benefit" of despising half the human race.
And so on...
Every belief has its benefits. But these are merely pragmatic incentives for adhering to received belief systems
whether or not the systems are true. But the only
real reason to believe something is because it's
true. The rest is just...well...
benefits.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:39 pm
by attofishpi
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:33 pm
What's the argument supposed to be here: that a belief is valid if it offers "benefits"?
That seems implausible.
Polytheism offers the "benefit" of being able to placate demi-gods.
Witchcraft offers the "benefit" of a feeling of magical power.
Nazism offers the "benefit" of national and genetic pride.
Atheism offers the "benefit" of a feeling of freedom from divine accountability.
Agnosticism offers the "benefit" of a feeling of not having to declare oneself for anything.
Totalitarianism offers the "benefits" of security and freedom from agonies of choice.
Legalism offers the "benefit" of rules to follow.
Socialism offers the "benefit" of forced equality.
Racism offers the "benefit" of making your group better than others.
Sexism offers the "benefit" of despising half the human race.
And so on...
Every belief has its benefits. But these are merely pragmatic incentives for adhering to received belief systems
whether or not the systems are true. But the only
real reason to believe something is because it's
true. The rest is just...well...
benefits.
No - I am pretty certain the argument is not that a belief is VALID IF there is a benefit.
- moreso, What IS the benefit of a particular belief (in this case - theism - woteva that entails)
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:56 pm
by Immanuel Can
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:39 pm
No - I am pretty certain the argument is not that a belief is VALID IF there is a benefit.
Then we might ask, "What's the point?" If we can enumerate "benefits" for every belief, what's so surprising about Theism having some?
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:09 am
by attofishpi
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:56 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:39 pm
No - I am pretty certain the argument is not that a belief is VALID IF there is a benefit.
Then we might ask, "What's the point?" If we can enumerate "benefits" for every belief, what's so surprising about Theism having some?
My dear fellow, it's not about benefits for any belief BEYOND theism.
So.
Is there a benefit to having a theistic belief - U might ask yourself (for the benefit of the OP - who is a total twit)
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:42 am
by tillingborn
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:33 pmEvery belief has its benefits. But these are merely pragmatic incentives for adhering to received belief systems
whether or not the systems are true. But the only
real reason to believe something is because it's
true. The rest is just...well...
benefits.
One of the key maxims of philosophy is that 'the unexamined life is not worth living'. The point is precisely not to adhere to received belief systems, but to challenge them. If a belief system holds up to scrutiny, well and good, but most people pragmatically adopt the general philosophy of the crowd they happen to belong to. There are thousands of successful belief systems, insofar as they are conducive to human well-being, many of which claim to be the truth. People who make a choice do so for aesthetic reasons, truth has little to do with it.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:06 am
by attofishpi
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:33 pmEvery belief has its benefits. But these are merely pragmatic incentives for adhering to received belief systems
whether or not the systems are true. But the only
real reason to believe something is because it's
true. The rest is just...well...
benefits.
One of the key maxims of philosophy is that 'the unexamined life is not worth living'. The point is precisely not to adhere to received belief systems, but to challenge them.
Well said. If U were born into any belief system, therefore - one would question at the outset (of comprehension of such things) - Y was I born into this particular belief system?
Y\N
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:42 am If a belief system holds up to scrutiny, well and good, but most people pragmatically adopt the general philosophy of the crowd they happen to belong to. There are thousands of successful belief systems, insofar as they are conducive to human well-being, many of which claim to be the truth. People who make a choice do so for aesthetic reasons, truth has little to do with it.
..now U R getting a tad fuzzy. Let me Altar (if i may):-
If a belief system holds up to scrutiny, well and good, but most people pragmatically adopt the general philosophy of the crowd they happen to belong to if they have NOT scrutinised 1st - their own existence at the primal stage, AND THEN, their philosophy (which they should continue to develop RATIONALLY without consideration of 'social norms') - ONLY then, when one has developed ones OWN analysis of ALL beyond their "I think therefore I am" threshold can one state - Yay or Nay -(to the previous point I made)
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:55 am
by Immanuel Can
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:09 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:56 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:39 pm
No - I am pretty certain the argument is not that a belief is VALID IF there is a benefit.
Then we might ask, "What's the point?" If we can enumerate "benefits" for every belief, what's so surprising about Theism having some?
My dear fellow, it's not about benefits for any belief BEYOND theism.
I get that. But why do we even care? It's simply not an important fact to know about a belief. One doesn't have reason to believe merely because somebody "gets" something from it; we only have warrant to believe in something if it's true.
In other words, the benefit criterion is irrelevant here.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:58 am
by Immanuel Can
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:42 am
The point is precisely not to adhere to received belief systems, but to challenge them.
That's precisely my point...why is it a meaningful challenge to ask what "benefits" the ideology gives? What reason does that give us to think it's true?
For it must be readily apparent to anyone, from the list I gave, that one can claim "benefits" from a wide range of ideologies that cannot all possibly be true -- indeed, some that you and I would even regard as stupid or pernicious, whether we think any of the list are good or not.
So what use is the "benefit" criterion?
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:33 am
by tillingborn
attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:06 am If U were born into any belief system, therefore - one would question at the outset (of comprehension of such things) - Y was I born into this particular belief system?
Y\N
I think the sort of answer would in part be a product of the belief system. To some the answer might be along the lines of 'Because it is part of God's plan'. To others it might be 'Because of what I did in a previous life.' In some belief systems it's not even a meaningful question.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:49 am
by tillingborn
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:58 am...why is it a meaningful challenge to ask what "benefits" the ideology gives? What reason does that give us to think it's true?
None.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:58 amFor it must be readily apparent to anyone, from the list I gave, that one can claim "benefits" from a wide range of ideologies that cannot all possibly be true -- indeed, some that you and I would even regard as stupid or pernicious, whether we think any of the list are good or not.
So what use is the "benefit" criterion?
Most people who have ever lived have not had access to any belief that can be called 'the truth'. The benefit criterion is frankly the only thing that unites us in this context.
Re: What are the Benefits of Theism?
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:05 am
by Immanuel Can
tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:49 am
Most people who have ever lived have not had access to any belief that can be called 'the truth'. The benefit criterion is frankly the only thing that unites us in this context.
Hmmm...Well, as a flat statement, that can't be quote correct. We all have pretty ready access to truth about a great number of matters. The law of gravity and the laws of thermodynamics work every bit as well in New York as New Delhi and Novosibirsk.
But perhaps you only mean that not everybody has had access to a comprehensive truth, or a sort of grand metanarrative that could put all the pieces in place. However, even in that matter, I think people know a great deal more about truth then we might at first suppose -- or that, in some cases, they would like to admit.