Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:59 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:57 pm as I say in multiple places: a man's life, liberty, or property is only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without good cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

a life for an unjustly taken life

So what is the "good cause" which makes capital punishment "just" ?

Because if you can't justify it, it's only fair to punish capital punishers with capital punishment.

state executions aren't just cuz the state is not a just construct

the state industrializes death...that ain't justice

and, yeah, the death row switch-puller ought to ride the lightnin' himself

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:00 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:59 pm sure it is: killin' without good cause is always murder

Then capital punishment is murder.

yeah, that's pretty what I said (or implied), multiple times, up-thread

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:04 pm yeah, that's pretty what I said (or implied), multiple times, up-thread

You also undermined that implication by suggesting a barter is necessary:

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:57 pm a life for an unjustly taken life

But the implication is much the same if you think murderers should be punished/incarcerated.

Who should be doing the punishment/incarceration if you don't recognise the legitimacy of states/justice systems?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:59 pm sure it is: killin' without good cause is always murder

doesn't matter if the person killed is inside or outside a womb

So stopping the growth of something that doesn't have awareness is murder?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:08 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:59 pm sure it is: killin' without good cause is always murder

doesn't matter if the person killed is inside or outside a womb

So stopping the growth of something that doesn't have awareness is murder?

by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

his lil brain is just as capable as yours

how can you say he has no awareness?

I imagine he's dreamin' continuously as he floats inside his ma

what's next, lace? are sleepin' folks not people? can we rub 'em out cuz they aren't conscious?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:21 pm by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

his lil brain is just as capable as yours

Well shit! Then there's absolutely no reason to carry to term, is there?

Mothers can give just do c-sections on month 3.

It may SEEM like an abortion, but it's just early birthing!

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:05 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:04 pm yeah, that's pretty what I said (or implied), multiple times, up-thread

You also undermined that implication by suggesting a barter is necessary:

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:57 pm a life for an unjustly taken life

But the implication is much the same if you think murderers should be punished/incarcerated.

Who should be doing the punishment/incarceration if you don't recognise the legitimacy of states/justice systems?

if you're wronged, you ought to make it right...if you're dead, it falls to your family or friends to make it right...if they choose not to make it right, well, then the bad guy walks

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:27 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:21 pm by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

his lil brain is just as capable as yours

Well shit! Then there's absolutely no reason to carry to term, is there?

Mothers can give just do c-sections on month 3.

It may SEEM like an abortion, but it's just early birthing!

will lil fetus person survive such a thing?

if yeah: go for it

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:30 pm if you're wronged, you ought to make it right...if you're dead, it falls to your family or friends to make it right...if they choose not to make it right, well, then the bad guy walks

And then on who does it fall to kill the family who made it right?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:21 pm by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:32 pm will lil fetus person survive such a thing?

if yeah: go for it

So if the fetus has "everything as far as biology goes" why wouldn't it be able to survive outside the womb?

What might be missing?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:33 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:30 pm if you're wronged, you ought to make it right...if you're dead, it falls to your family or friends to make it right...if they choose not to make it right, well, then the bad guy walks

And then on who does it fall to kill the family who made it right?

as it's been made right, no one ought to lay a hand on 'em

again: a man's life, liberty, or property is only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without good cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

the fella who off'd you is the baddie; your family or friends are just collectn' a just debt

now: you don't have to agree, but if you wanna poke holes, you'll have to do better

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:35 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:21 pm by week 12, everything you have, as far as biology goes, lil fetus person has

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:32 pm will lil fetus person survive such a thing?

if yeah: go for it

So if the fetus has "everything as far as biology goes" why wouldn't it be able to survive outside the womb?

What might be missing?

lil fetus person requires support cuz he's fragile

old aunt tilly is fragile too...she requires all kinds of machinery to keep her blood clean, to empty her bladder, to get proper nutrition into her body...should we deprive her smply cuz she's inconvenient to keep around?

most abortions happen cuz the lil fetus-person is inconvenient

we can argue that any fragile person is inconvenient and, for that reason alone, ought to be rubbed out

is that what you want?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:38 pm again: a man's life, liberty, or property is only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without good cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

the fella who off'd you is the baddie; your family or friends are just collectn' a just debt

now: you don't have to agree, but if you wanna poke holes, you'll have to do better

OK but the family/friends don't gave a GOOD cause for taking a life. They only have a BAD cause - debt collection.

And so just as you insist that the person who claims a debt on behalf of society should right the lightning, then so should the family

Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:38 pm again: a man's life, liberty, or property is only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without good cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

the fella who off'd you is the baddie; your family or friends are just collectn' a just debt

now: you don't have to agree, but if you wanna poke holes, you'll have to do better

OK but the family/friends don't gave a GOOD cause for taking a life. They only have a BAD cause - debt collection.

And so just as you insist that the person who claims a debt on behalf of society should right the lightning, then so should the family

yeah, I ain't game-playin' today, skep

do better, or leave me be

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:45 pm it requires support cuz it's fragile

old aunt tilly is fragile too...she requires all kinds of machinery to keep her blood clean, to empty her bladder, to get proper nutrition into her body...should we deprive her smply cuz she's inconvenient to keep around?

You are going straight for the strawman, Harry.

How do you support an 3 month fetus that hasn't even got lungs?