Philosophy Now Forum

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:30 pm They can be. What is this supposed to have with what we're talking about re morality?

They CAN be or they MUST be?

If your conception of morality is NOT causal - you are wasting everybody's time.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:30 pm What???

What is confusing you? Is Gravity objective?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:30 pm But that's not what we're talking about!

That's not what YOU are talking about.

I am part of the "we" I can speak for myself. If you don't mind?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:33 pm That's not what YOU are talking about.

No. That's not what the thread is about or what anyone has been discussing. That's not what the issue of objectivity re morality is about.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:35 pm No. That's not what the thread is about or what anyone has been discussing. That's not what the issue of objectivity re morality is about.

You don't get to frame it.

What WE are talking about is first and foremost (and always) about negotiating a frame.

And you don't seem too keen on negotiating. You seem very keen on forcing your frame down my throat. (eve though you like to pretend you don't like normatives)

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:36 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:35 pm No. That's not what the thread is about or what anyone has been discussing. That's not what the issue of objectivity re morality is about.

You don't get to frame it.

What WE are talking about is first and foremost (and always) about negotiating a frame.

You can talk about something different if you like . . .but then you're not even addressing the same topic. That's fine, but it is what it is.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:41 pm You can talk about something different if you like . . .but then you're not even addressing the same topic. That's fine, but it is what it is.

That's gold!

Especially since you worked your ass off to dodge telling me what you mean by "same" and "different".

Is A the same as А; or is A different to А?

Two trivial yes/no questions. Why do you keep dodging them?

You can't even determine empirical sameness/difference, but you want to insist that you are the one to determine whether "we" are talking about the "same" topic.

Who appointed you as you chief-of-sameness and difference?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:49 pm Is A the same as А; or is A different to А?

The token? What the token refers to? What are you asking about?

At any rate, if you'd be confused about what it would even refer to to be talking about the same topic or not, why would anyone bother talking to you?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:03 pm The token? What the token refers to? What are you asking about?

No, not the token. The two letters as they avail themselves to your perception/experience.

Is A the same as А; or is A not the same as А?

Do you have a measurement/procedure/experiment to determine which hypothesis obtains?

Hypothesis A: A is the same as А
Hypothesis B: A is not the same as А

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:03 pm At any rate, if you'd be confused about what it would even refer to to be talking about the same topic or not, why would anyone bother talking to you?

I am referring to things right before your very eyes.

You are confused whether A is the same as А.

If you can't even pass a simple test like this, why should anybody talk to YOU?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:25 pm No, not the token. The two letters as they avail themselves to your perception/experience.

This tells me nothing. There are still the tokens and there's what I take the tokens to refer to. Those are two different things.

I am referring to things right before your very eyes.

I would take this to refer to the tokens probably.
The tokens are different. There are two of them.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:32 pm This tells me nothing. There are still the tokens and there's what I take the tokens to refer to. Those are two different things.

The are not tokens or referents. They are things-in-themselves.

You have A.
And you have А.

Is A the same as А? It's a yes/no fucking question! Why is this so difficult for you

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:32 pm I would take this to refer to the tokens probably.
The tokens are different. There are two of them.

Great! So you have identified a difference in locality. They exist at different coordinates in space-time.
In English, we could call them A-left and A-right.

Is A-left (A) the same as A-right (А) ?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:40 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:32 pm This tells me nothing. There are still the tokens and there's what I take the tokens to refer to. Those are two different things.

The are not tokens or referents. They are things-in-themselves.

You have A.
And you have А.

As tokens, what they are ontologically is marks on a screen. Again, as that, they are different. There are two of them.

They consist of different matter, undergoing different processes, etc.

Is this going to wind up having something to do with the moral issue at hand, by the way?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:43 pm As tokens, what they are ontologically is marks on a screen. Again, as that, they are different. There are two of them.

They are not tokens. They are existents.

There are two of them.

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:43 pm They consist of different matter, undergoing different processes, etc.

Since this sentence is true fo ANY two existents which you have separated in space-time, please explain to me how you use the English word "same"?

How does "sameness" obtain?

When and why would you say that A is the same as А?

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm Is this going to wind up having something to do with the moral issue at hand, by the way?

The notions of "sameness" and "difference" are normative/prescriptive...

You tell me.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:46 pm Since this sentence is true fo ANY two existents which you have separated in space-time, please explain to me how you use the English word "same"?

One thing, one spatiotemporal location.

When and why would you say that A is the same as А?

With respect to what they refer to. A single thing, at a single spatiotemporal location, in the same respect, etc.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:47 pm

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm Is this going to wind up having something to do with the moral issue at hand, by the way?

The notions of "sameness" and "difference" are normative/prescriptive...

You tell me.

Even if they were normative or prescriptive that wouldn't have anything to do with morality. It's not as if all normatives/prescriptives are moral.

But how are they normative/prescriptive? According to whom?