Philosophy Now Forum

It would feel problematic as to whether I actually am. I would need to ask myself what it was or what the conditions were as the discernible features of enlightenment. Merely knowing more than I knew before is not symptomatic of it though it may create the illusion of having accomplished some part of it.

For me, enlightenment is the simultaneous clearing away of delusion or ‘ignorance’ of our condition as the sufferers or even the agent, as well as the knowledge of what you really are, being awareness.

Yet, I’m not sure this is an end in itself, I think it’s a constant clearing away process and recognising process, as our egos have a latency and a tendency to reattach, and cover our true nature from itself.

Of course, the ultimate goal is to remain in this, yet at the same time, to live in a cave is not the ‘way’, so even if one is enlightened, the question then begs, what now? How can you change the illusion in a better way?

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:29 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:26 pm

Hermit Philosopher wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:24 pm Roughly, how long ago was your enlightenment..?

When I was around the age of 4/5 years old. when I first became aware I was aware, when I became aware of myself as an individual self.

Are you saying -- according to the opening post -- that when you were 4/5 years old, you had existential depression from confronting issues of existence: death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness?

Yes, I am saying that. I've felt that way since infant school. But the good news is that I have been able to endure all the sensations, thoughts and emotions that came as part of the whole package of being alive and sentient. I just live in the immediate moment, I have no agenda, plan or desire for the future, nor do I dwell on the past. All that matters to me, is to live a very simple, basic, no frills, idle, everyday, ordinary life, until nature is ready to snuff me out. I have no fear of both being alive or the thought of dying.
I just go with the flow where-ever that flow wants to carry me.

Even though I've had thoughts of existential depression, existence, death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness...I quickly became aware that those thoughts were not who I was/am. And is why most of my life I have lived like a tumble-weed blowing in the wind. I've not been part of the normal crowd of people...so to speak, but I consciously chose the way I lived my life, no other person in my life had any influence over me whatsoever to try and move me in a certain direction, I've always walked my own path, and it was a very solitary path by choice. If given the choice to be born at all, I would say no way, leave me alone to live in non-existent bliss. I just see life as a pointless persuit, totally meaningless with nothing to do here except witness the stupidest dumb senselessness of this relentless carnage, pain and suffering that is sentient life.



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Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:45 am
what now?

How can you change the illusion in a better way?

You cannot change the illusion in a better way...there is only and ever your way or the highway...imho

Hermit Philosopher wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:20 pm @Dontaskme, forgive me for quoting in this manner - I cannot seem to do it “correctly” all of a sudden.

You wrote:

.../it's rare to hear that there is nothing to do or attain to reach enlightenment.

This is not true in my experience. Many of whom I have spoken to, say just that; that they did nothing to reach their new perspective, but rather “stumbled across it”. Often they express a sense of unworthiness because of it too. But that’s because they see it differently to you of course.

Humbly
Hermit

Stumbling across it ..is just another way of saying there is nothing to do or attain ..for one is already what one seeks.

Lacewing wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:00 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:34 pm the actual realtime events of every new moment cannot be known to have happened in the EXACT moment they are happening,

They don't need to be.

Reflection and memory are other perspectives.

Need is just a need that does not need to be...need is an artifical construct...I need to have a child, is selfisness. The universe does not need children to complete it. Animals in the wild do not know they are making offspring when they mate with each other, they are just following a biological impulse to mate and reproduce. The male lion does not say to the female lets make a baby lion cub, the male lion does not have a baby in mind prior to it's biological urge...no it just fulfills it's natural urge to stick it's penis in her. There is no need for life to live. Life does not have the mind to create a need. All sentient life forms that crawl this earth planet are in essence the offspring of a barren female. In other words, there is nobody home here, there's no one to clean up the huge mess that the mess making machines have made. Everything is born of shit, lives in the shit, and then returns to the shit.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:14 am

Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:45 am
what now?

How can you change the illusion in a better way?

You cannot change the illusion in a better way...there is only and ever your way or the highway...imho

I can see you have had your fair share of downs.

No doubt I couldn’t imagine what it’s been like to live in your shoes, nor would i want to.

I agree, for some in this life, there is mostly senseless suffering. Hopefully not for all. It’s the darkest darks that make the lightest lights so bright, the lowest lows make the highest highs so high.

It’s all there in potential, but we can only go with the flow and see where it takes us. Given a different life, maybe everything comes up snake eyes. Everything in life comes down to sheer chance, random serendipity, and sometimes it seems murphy’s Law is the only thing that you can rely on.

Maybe the possibility of positives doesn’t offset the sheer harshness of the negatives, they might just be a consolation prize.

Ultimately, everything eventually crumbles. Some day, everyone you and I know, will die (hopefully not before we do), family members pass away, and our own lives eventually.

I don’t know what happens when you die. But I instinctively feel that there is just non existence for this particular consciousness. No nothingness, less than nothing, just non existence. Negation. The sense of being this distinct entity having these experiences, is ultimately illusion.

There is awareness, but no one it belongs to. And when there is death, there is no awareness. No one dies, this is the reality behind the illusion.

But, we can’t help but care about the illusion. I have a family, which I care for and have a strong attachment to.

If I was to lose them, it would devastate me. I have lost extended family, and I know some day, my parents will die in my lifetime, if I’m not taken before them.

I don’t deny that this illusion is worth caring about, and it seems we don’t really get to choose whether to care or not.

Every choice, no matter what, has consequences, even the choices we don’t make. We cannot escape causality or karma, as much as we would like to think it might be possible. As long as we are attached to these human bodies, pain is always a potential.

But, and I’m paraphrasing, we may not be able to avoid the first painful arrow, but, there is hope to avoid the second arrow of suffering your pain. Being with it as much as possible is the only way.

Though in the moment, it can be very difficult, depending on the pain, to not suffer that second arrow.

Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:57 amfor some in this life, there is mostly senseless suffering.

Hopefully not for all.

But even to observe the senseless pain misery and suffering that is inflicted on other sentient creatures is my suffering too.

I cannot bare and do not ever want to live in a world where even just 1 sentient creature has to go through some form of senseless suffering, which they do all the time in multiple horrific and brutal ways. This natural universe is a sadist evil blood thirsty killing machine. Totally pointless and meaningless.





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Sometimes to feel sadness too short …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgmskQgb9U

But like they say, the only way around is through, without blinking (ever notice that about Osho?)

I only mention him because one of two possibilities exists.

- You sound like you’ve read Osho. I would know. I’ve read all of his Alpha and Omega.

- If you haven’t read him, your writing indicates a similar view, which indicates that both of you discovered the same view, which indicates the view pre-existed either of you within infinite potentiality and manifests in full or part, according to conditions.

- There is a third possibility regarding a limited range of possible human responses to similar conditions that trigger similar thoughts.

*

I Would not Like my Way of Life to Be Ever Called a Philosophy

“I am not a philosopher. The philosopher thinks about things. It is a mind approach. My approach is a no-mind approach. It is just the very opposite of philosophizing. It is not thinking about things, ideas, but seeing with a clarity which comes when you put your mind aside, when you see through silence, not through logic. Seeing is not thinking.

“The sun rises there; if you think about it you miss it, because while you are thinking about it, you are going away from it. In thinking you can move miles away; and thoughts go faster than anything possible. If you are seeing the sunrise then one thing has to be certain, that you are not thinking about it. Only then can you see it.

“Thinking becomes a veil on the eyes. It gives its own color, its own idea to the reality. It does not allow reality to reach you, it imposes itself upon reality; it is a deviation from reality. Hence no philosopher has ever been able to know the truth.

“All the philosophers have been thinking about the truth. But thinking about the truth is an impossibility. Either you know it, or you don't. If you know it, there is no need to think about it. If you don't, then how can you think about it?

“A philosopher thinking about truth is just like a blind man thinking about light. If you have eyes, you don't think about light, you see it. Seeing is a totally different process; it is a byproduct of meditation.

“Hence I would not like my way of life to be ever called a philosophy, because it has nothing to do with philosophy. You can call it philosia. The word ‘philo’ means love; ‘sophy’ means wisdom, knowledge – love for knowledge. In philosia, ‘philo’ means the same love, and ‘sia’ means seeing: love, not for knowledge but for being – not for wisdom, but for experiencing.”

- Osho

*

Interesting, because he was academically well-versed in all philosophies.

Dontaskme wrote
No Walker, the Buddha that speaks of knowledge is a liar.

There is no way out of suffering that we can know of.

Keep in mind what Thích Quảng Đức did: entirely out of range of suffering. What was he in the range of? Go online and find out what people say.

At any rate, you don't really understand what this is about at all, and I assume you know this, but enjoy antagonizing others and their beliefs, as I do. But you should read an think more clearly on this.

Hermit Philosopher wrote
When I became enlightened, it felt like this

Then there is that extraordinary next step whereby one literally leaves the world.

Dontaskme wrote
But even to observe the senseless pain misery and suffering that is inflicted on other sentient creatures is my suffering too.

I cannot bare and do not ever want to live in a world where even just 1 sentient creature has to go through some form of senseless suffering, which they do all the time in multiple horrific and brutal ways. This natural universe is a sadist evil blood thirsty killing machine. Totally pointless and meaningless.

I take it back. You're better than I first thought, for this is indeed what happens when the apple is bitten and consumed to its core. When you look closely at the world's horrors, and realize the grim reality of the place into which we are "thrown". Heidegger used the German Geworfenheit, which he got from Kierkegaard's Concept of Anxiety. The existentialists have a lot to say, but it is Emanuel Levinas that takes one to the threshold of "metaethical" thinking. A worthy read, his Totality and Infinity.

But they are certainly not all religious types. Heidegger wasn't, but he did think Buddhists had their finger on something, thought they could provide humanity with a new language to speak that is more primordial.

As for me, the apple is the dreadful BEGINNING. One has to get past literature and into a higher insight. Philosophy can enable this, depending on who you read. The Vedanta, for example.

Finally, that about "1 sentient creature": Absolutely brilliant.

Really? I’d say thick as a brick and dim as the dark side of the moon to not incorporate human brutality into the equation of being.

odysseus wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:42 pm
As for me, the apple is the dreadful BEGINNING. One has to get past literature and into a higher insight. Philosophy can enable this, depending on who you read. The Vedanta, for example.

I've been there, but discovered it wasn't enough, I had another awakening, it was a total shocker.. it was to realise that something can be done here rather than just keep turning a blind eye to what's really going on, we have the knowledge to do the sensible thing, we have the capacity to think very seriously about the possible reality that there really is an escape hatch out of this mess.

The higher insight for me, is to put an end to the pointless senselessness of sentient life. That's the only positive for this negative reckless agressive, parasitic, canabalistic dog eat dog struggle for life. Life is a fail, it's a very bad experiment gone horrifically wrong. Evolution screwed up big time.

The only intelligence in the universe is the human primate, the onus is on us to end this insanely expensive stupidity.