Philosophy Now Forum

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:59 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:12 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:04 am
I believe the 'nature' elements are more critical because they are foundational, i.e. the substance for which the forms [nurture] are built upon.
Note the common saying,
it is better to put out the fire at its source than fire-fighting or
it is better to pull out to weeds from its root rather than cutting the weeds.

Would this not necessitate eugenics?

My main point above is that we should focus on understanding the 'nature' elements of human beings so that nurturing can be more effective to ensure the well being of the individuals and therefrom the well-being of humanity.

The fundamental nature a human being is the Genome which is very complex. Even though we have accomplished the once-thought-impossible-task of mapping the full human genome, humanity at present merely dealing with a small tip of the iceberg of genetics.

The other fundamental nature element of a human being is the brain with its on average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses. Humanity is a present embarking to map the whole human brain to understand its full neural connectivities to their respective effects and behaviors.

Thus my point is humanity must first focus on the above nature [the roots] to avoid blind actions based on the black-box approach. At the same time we have to do our best in improving the nurturing elements to deal with evil and violent acts.

Where we need to efficiently improve and reduce the states of evil and violent acts, there will be need to deal within the levels of the genes and the neural wirings. This will involve 'eugenics' but it is with genuine moral and good intents, not with blind and evil eugenics that had happened in the past, e.g. the blind superficial eugenics of Plato, Galton, forced sterilizations, Hitler, Josef Mengele, etc. see https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#

Currently what we have is modern eugenics or modern human genetic engineering, something like;

Modern eugenics, better known as human genetic engineering, changes or removes genes to prevent disease, cure disease or improve your body in some significant way. The potential health benefits of human gene therapy are staggering since many devastating or life-threatening illnesses could be cured.

However my point is towards the improvements in moral competency via human genetic engineering and other methods in the FUTURE which must be FOOLPROOF -note the term "FOOLPROOF" which is critical to ensure there are no 'evil' consequences out of what is intended to be thoroughly good.

To improve moral competence in all humans, I would prefer not to use the term 'eugenics' because the term 'eugenics' is corrupted, stained and stuck with its history of terrible evil acts and intents.

Note, my current priority is to understand the human NATURE aspects thoroughly rather than acting on Nurture blindly in a 'black-box' approach.

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:33 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:59 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:12 am
Would this not necessitate eugenics?

My main point above is that we should focus on understanding the 'nature' elements of human beings so that nurturing can be more effective to ensure the well being of the individuals and therefrom the well-being of humanity.

The fundamental nature a human being is the Genome which is very complex. Even though we have accomplished the once-thought-impossible-task of mapping the full human genome, humanity at present merely dealing with a small tip of the iceberg of genetics.

The other fundamental nature element of a human being is the brain with its on average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses. Humanity is a present embarking to map the whole human brain to understand its full neural connectivities to their respective effects and behaviors.

Thus my point is humanity must first focus on the above nature [the roots] to avoid blind actions based on the black-box approach. At the same time we have to do our best in improving the nurturing elements to deal with evil and violent acts.

Where we need to efficiently improve and reduce the states of evil and violent acts, there will be need to deal within the levels of the genes and the neural wirings. This will involve 'eugenics' but it is with genuine moral and good intents, not with blind and evil eugenics that had happened in the past, e.g. the blind superficial eugenics of Plato, Galton, forced sterilizations, Hitler, Josef Mengele, etc. see https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#

Currently what we have is modern eugenics or modern human genetic engineering, something like;

Modern eugenics, better known as human genetic engineering, changes or removes genes to prevent disease, cure disease or improve your body in some significant way. The potential health benefits of human gene therapy are staggering since many devastating or life-threatening illnesses could be cured.

However my point is towards the improvements in moral competency via human genetic engineering and other methods in the FUTURE which must be FOOLPROOF -note the term "FOOLPROOF" which is critical to ensure there are no 'evil' consequences out of what is intended to be thoroughly good.

To improve moral competence in all humans, I would prefer not to use the term 'eugenics' because the term 'eugenics' is corrupted, stained and stuck with its history of terrible evil acts and intents.

Note, my current priority is to understand the human NATURE aspects thoroughly rather than acting on Nurture blindly in a 'black-box' approach.

I understand and agree we need generally to increase moral competence . However as regardsAs regards nature or nurture what we have is the "black box" ,as you put it. The black box is a given that cannot be inspected.

There can never be a big, red, "foolproof".

There can never be a big, red, Foolproof because violence changes its shape and is omnipresent n all our activities including what we consumers consume. What a meat eater chooses to cook and eat, and a wearer of fast fashion in dress chooses to buy are violent actions.

In that case, it is safer to keep up the good fight to change cultures than to alter people's genes. Genetic engineering is great for making edible tissues in no kill factories. Genetic engineering is great for eliminating genetic diseases among human gene pool. But human nature is not specifiable like a disease is specifiable. The human genome cannot specify human nature.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:09 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:33 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:59 am
My main point above is that we should focus on understanding the 'nature' elements of human beings so that nurturing can be more effective to ensure the well being of the individuals and therefrom the well-being of humanity.

The fundamental nature a human being is the Genome which is very complex. Even though we have accomplished the once-thought-impossible-task of mapping the full human genome, humanity at present merely dealing with a small tip of the iceberg of genetics.

The other fundamental nature element of a human being is the brain with its on average 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 synapses. Humanity is a present embarking to map the whole human brain to understand its full neural connectivities to their respective effects and behaviors.

Thus my point is humanity must first focus on the above nature [the roots] to avoid blind actions based on the black-box approach. At the same time we have to do our best in improving the nurturing elements to deal with evil and violent acts.

Where we need to efficiently improve and reduce the states of evil and violent acts, there will be need to deal within the levels of the genes and the neural wirings. This will involve 'eugenics' but it is with genuine moral and good intents, not with blind and evil eugenics that had happened in the past, e.g. the blind superficial eugenics of Plato, Galton, forced sterilizations, Hitler, Josef Mengele, etc. see https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics#

Currently what we have is modern eugenics or modern human genetic engineering, something like;



However my point is towards the improvements in moral competency via human genetic engineering and other methods in the FUTURE which must be FOOLPROOF -note the term "FOOLPROOF" which is critical to ensure there are no 'evil' consequences out of what is intended to be thoroughly good.

To improve moral competence in all humans, I would prefer not to use the term 'eugenics' because the term 'eugenics' is corrupted, stained and stuck with its history of terrible evil acts and intents.

Note, my current priority is to understand the human NATURE aspects thoroughly rather than acting on Nurture blindly in a 'black-box' approach.

I understand and agree we need generally to increase moral competence . However as regardsAs regards nature or nurture what we have is the "black box" ,as you put it. The black box is a given that cannot be inspected.

We have already penetrated into and inspected what is inside the "black box" of human nature to some degree but not into the greater depths and widths. Note humanity had already fully mapped the human genome which was once thought was impossible.
The more significant hidden mechanism of the black box is to full map the all the neural connectivities of the human brain and we have already dive in just beneath the surface of it.
So the black box can be explored and inspected for the better good of humanity.

There can never be a big, red, "foolproof".

There can never be a big, red, Foolproof because violence changes its shape and is omnipresent n all our activities including what we consumers consume. What a meat eater chooses to cook and eat, and a wearer of fast fashion in dress chooses to buy are violent actions.

I have to highlight 'foolproof' otherwise most [as usual] will think of I am proposing the creation of 'frankensteins' that can be exploited for evil, violence and other selfish interests of individuals or groups.

There is no such thing as absolute 'foolproof' but with the intent of 'fool proofing' in mind we will strive to ensure there are no serious side defects and negatives.
When humanity have explored the black box fully, humanity will understand the mechanisms and processes how evil_ness and violence are triggered and acted upon. From there humanity will be able to assist individuals to manage any impulse to evilness and violence, and nip them at the bud.

Evil and violence are on a continuum in degrees.
If say, the evil of genocide is 99/100 degree of evilness, our concern should be to tackle those evil and violent acts that are rated >50/100 and eventually toward those less than 50/100.

What you mentioned above re meat eater and fashion can be a threat to humanity, but they would be rated with say 5/100 degree of evil_ness.
While we need to keep such relatively milder actions in mind, our focus and priority at present should be on those evil and violent acts that are >50/100 degrees of evilness, e.g. genocides, mass murders, mass rapes, and other terrible evil acts and violence.

In that case, it is safer to keep up the good fight to change cultures than to alter people's genes. Genetic engineering is great for making edible tissues in no kill factories. Genetic engineering is great for eliminating genetic diseases among human gene pool. But human nature is not specifiable like a disease is specifiable. The human genome cannot specify human nature.

Btw, dealing with changes within the black-box need not necessary involve the genes.
Altering genes come in degrees and is the last option.

The other move is to make changes to the wirings of neurons and to strengthen the neural connectivities [inside the black box] so they do not weaken easily when thrusted upon by the primal forces that could turn evil.
At present this is done via mindful meditation and other mental exercises which are using the black-box principle and which pose a hit or miss situations.
When we dig into the black-box and understand the mechanisms fully, then we will be able to target the specific and significant neurons and neural connectivity to be strengthen.

All the above will be subjected to the 'fool proof' conditions.

Belinda wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:39 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:09 am Btw, dealing with changes within the black-box need not necessary involve the genes.
Altering genes come in degrees and is the last option.

The other move is to make changes to the wirings of neurons and to strengthen the neural connectivities [inside the black box] so they do not weaken easily when thrusted upon by the primal forces that could turn evil.
At present this is done via mindful meditation and other mental exercises which are using the black-box principle and which pose a hit or miss situations.
When we dig into the black-box and understand the mechanisms fully, then we will be able to target the specific and significant neurons and neural connectivity to be strengthen.

All the above will be subjected to the 'fool proof' conditions.

Changing brains has good and bad to it. I'd agree that sleep, rest, recreation, nutrition, avoidance of infections, and shelter maintain or engender better brains.
Meditation and insightful liberal learning change brains for the better, and probably do so throughout a long life too.

The bad about changing brains is bad people enslave others by means of their bad ideas. Every idea has a correlate in the brain. The converse is not true; some brain changes are not ideas but are diseases with no positive mental correlate at all.
Here, I become biased. What is a "positive" mental correlate? My answer would follow the clinical model which is "that which relieves suffering and preserves life".