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Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:38 pm
by Nick_A
V A

Plato once defined man as a being in search of meaning. .

You explain the search to experience our Source as the need for consolation: to avoid experiencing the question of our mortality. But what if the need to experience objective meaning is more than consolation? This is the essential question for both religion and philosophy. Why do we exist? It is a question needing more than consolation but a quality of consciousness we only have in potential.
Whatever is light of your Source is a belief and when analyzed it is an illusion.
What counts is the psychological issue, not whether the Source is really-real or not.
How do you analyze the ONE as described by Plotinus to determine if it is an illusion or not?

https://iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
a. The One

The ‘concept’ of the One is not, properly speaking, a concept at all, since it is never explicitly defined by Plotinus, yet it is nevertheless the foundation and grandest expression of his philosophy. Plotinus does make it clear that no words can do justice to the power of the One; even the name, ‘the One,’ is inadequate, for naming already implies discursive knowledge, and since discursive knowledge divides or separates its objects in order to make them intelligible, the One cannot be known through the process of discursive reasoning (Ennead VI.9.4). Knowledge of the One is achieved through the experience of its ‘power’ (dunamis) and its nature, which is to provide a ‘foundation’ (arkhe) and location (topos) for all existents (VI.9.6). The ‘power’ of the One is not a power in the sense of physical or even mental action; the power of the One, as Plotinus speaks of it, is to be understood as the only adequate description of the ‘manifestation’ of a supreme principle that, by its very nature, transcends all predication and discursive understanding. This ‘power,’ then, is capable of being experienced, or known, only through contemplation (theoria), or the purely intellectual ‘vision’ of the source of all things. The One transcends all beings, and is not itself a being, precisely because all beings owe their existence and subsistence to their eternal contemplation of the dynamic manifestation(s) of the One. The One can be said to be the ‘source’ of all existents only insofar as every existent naturally and (therefore) imperfectly contemplates the various aspects of the One, as they are extended throughout the cosmos, in the form of either sensible or intelligible objects or existents. The perfect contemplation of the One, however, must not be understood as a return to a primal source; for the One is not, strictly speaking, a source or a cause, but rather the eternally present possibility — or active making-possible — of all existence, of Being (V.2.1). According to Plotinus, the unmediated vision of the ‘generative power’ of the One, to which existents are led by the Intelligence (V.9.2), results in an ecstatic dance of inspiration, not in a satiated torpor; for it is the nature of the One to impart fecundity to existents — that is to say: the One, in its regal, indifferent capacity as undiminishable potentiality of Being, permits both rapt contemplation and ecstatic, creative extension. These twin poles, this ‘stanchion,’ is the manifested framework of existence which the One produces, effortlessly (V.1.6). The One, itself, is best understood as the center about which the ‘stanchion,’ the framework of the cosmos, is erected. This ‘stanchion’ or framework is the result of the contemplative activity of the Intelligence.
If the ONE is essential reality, it is beyond the abilities of our superficial analysis to comprehend. If we are drawn to our Source by our need for meaning, how do we approach it if the solution is beyond what is revealed by analysis? How can we reason in new way?

Protagoras would deny the search and call it imagination. Socrates would say that once we admit we know nothing, we may begin to “understand” something.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:47 pm
by Nick_A
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:49 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:43 am Eod
In killing Socrates man lost a perpetrator of wisdom. In seeking to avoid wisdom man created the circumstances where he no longer receives wisdom, thus justice is done.
Is it really justice for the death of one man to be called justice since his death deprives the world of justice? I don't see the logic in it.

The world did not want his wisdom therefore they recieved what they desired.

At the same time was Jesus' crucifixion justice? It was to many Romans and Jews. who wanted to be rid of him. For his followers the crucifixion was a gross injustice. Yet from a universal perspective it could be considered justice since it was the only way to enable the Resurrection.

Do you define justice by the opinions from subjective human standards or knowledge of objective universal standards? When Socrates said "I know that I know nothing," Protagoras would never have understood what he meant.

Objectivity is the observation of a phenomenon from multiple angles. It is group agreement. This is objective.
Are you suggesting that if 1,000 experts got together and compared their observations on the question "What is Man," Their conclusion would be objective?

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:55 pm
by Walker
Ask 1000 people to guess the number of jelly beans in a big jar, then take the average of their guesses, and you’re gonna be pretty close to the actual count, unless some Leftist clowns purposely give a ridiculous answer. This is the long-abandoned principle behind google.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:38 am
by Nick_A
Walker wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:55 pm Ask 1000 people to guess the number of jelly beans in a big jar, then take the average of their guesses, and you’re gonna be pretty close to the actual count, unless some Leftist clowns purposely give a ridiculous answer. This is the long-abandoned principle behind google.
Hi Walker and welcome to the discussion. I'd like to get your views on this essential question. Is it possible that Man's intellect can transcend opinions denied by Protagoras and approach objective knowledge described by Plato as within the forms? Is the collective opinions of Man the measure of all things or can they be transcended in pursuit of objective knowledge? If possible, how can a person become capable of this conscious quality?

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:41 am
by Eodnhoj7
Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:47 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:49 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:43 am Eod



Is it really justice for the death of one man to be called justice since his death deprives the world of justice? I don't see the logic in it.

The world did not want his wisdom therefore they recieved what they desired.

At the same time was Jesus' crucifixion justice? It was to many Romans and Jews. who wanted to be rid of him. For his followers the crucifixion was a gross injustice. Yet from a universal perspective it could be considered justice since it was the only way to enable the Resurrection.

Do you define justice by the opinions from subjective human standards or knowledge of objective universal standards? When Socrates said "I know that I know nothing," Protagoras would never have understood what he meant.

Objectivity is the observation of a phenomenon from multiple angles. It is group agreement. This is objective.
Are you suggesting that if 1,000 experts got together and compared their observations on the question "What is Man," Their conclusion would be objective?
Objectivity is multiple perspectives seeing the same thing. Objectivity is thus contradictive in nature given one thing may be observed through multiple objective states.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:14 am
by Veritas Aequitas
Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:38 pm V A

Plato once defined man as a being in search of meaning. .

You explain the search to experience our Source as the need for consolation: to avoid experiencing the question of our mortality. But what if the need to experience objective meaning is more than consolation? This is the essential question for both religion and philosophy. Why do we exist? It is a question needing more than consolation but a quality of consciousness we only have in potential.
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from
  • 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

    2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.

The test:
If you reflect on it [God, One, Being and the likes] you will be able to feel the immediate relief yourself.
If you believe otherwise you will feel uncomfortable.
Whatever is light of your Source is a belief and when analyzed it is an illusion.
What counts is the psychological issue, not whether the Source is really-real or not.
How do you analyze the ONE as described by Plotinus to determine if it is an illusion or not?

https://iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
a. The One
....
If the ONE is essential reality, it is beyond the abilities of our superficial analysis to comprehend. If we are drawn to our Source by our need for meaning, how do we approach it if the solution is beyond what is revealed by analysis? How can we reason in new way?
The solution is to deal with the psychological issues surrounding the above inevitable cognitive dissonance inherent in human nature.

Buddhism recognized the inevitable cognitive dissonance and deal with it directly with various psychological principles and practices.
Instead of seeking "substance" "Essence" "ONE" or GOD, Buddhism recognize the reality of 'nothingness' or 'emptiness' - "Sunyata"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81
The concept of 'emptiness' also posed a cognitive issue and this is handled with the relevant principles and practices.
Protagoras would deny the search and call it imagination. Socrates would say that once we admit we know nothing, we may begin to “understand” something.
Note sure Protagoras called it 'imagination' but more appropriately an illusion or a meta-hallucination.
Point is there is no ultimate substance, essence, the ONE or God in-itself.

There are no things-in-themselves absolutely independent of man.
Man is the measure of all things.

That man cling to the ultimate substance, essence, the ONE or God in-itself as really real is due to psychology as a result of the cognitive dissonance from an existential crisis.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:27 am
by Skepdick
Nick_A wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:27 pm Then Man cannot be made in the image of God
An image of God is all a Man can be made in.

If Man was made to be an exact replica of God then Men and Gods would be one and the same.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am
by attofishpi
Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:27 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:27 pm Then Man cannot be made in the image of God
An image of God is all a Man can be made in.

If Man was made to be an exact replica of God then Men and Gods would be one and the same.
Skepdick, with the greatest respect - wot have U been smoking?


have u got a spare spliff?

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:09 am
by attofishpi
...woops - sorry I just went back a tad in this very deep conversation of ducks and gods. I'll leave U both to quack on ol ducks

..my bill is con-fused.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 am
by Skepdick
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am Skepdick, with the greatest respect - wot have U been smoking?
Self-deification. God as a human archetype/ideal/destination.

It's literally the same idea as Asimov's "The Last Question", which itself is the exact same idea as Maxwell's Demon.

Cosmic AC existing in hyperspace made of something that was neither matter nor energy, being omniscient etc etc.
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am have u got a spare spliff?
Nietzsche smoked 'em all.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:54 am
by attofishpi
Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am Skepdick, with the greatest respect - wot have U been smoking?
Self-deification. God as a human archetype/ideal/destination.

It's literally the same idea as Asimov's "The Last Question", which itself is the exact same idea as Maxwell's Demon.

Cosmic AC existing in hyperspace made of something that was neither matter nor energy, being omniscient etc etc.
mmm a quick switch with no energy.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am have u got a spare spliff?
Nietzsche smoked 'em all.
Oh well, I'll just see if some Bohr's got one.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:41 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Skepdick wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:27 am
Nick_A wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:27 pm Then Man cannot be made in the image of God
An image of God is all a Man can be made in.

If Man was made to be an exact replica of God then Men and Gods would be one and the same.
All being as an approximation of the One though images necessitates that the image would eventually synthesize with the source through a contraction of being. Being expands and the images are formed. Being then contracts causing a synthesis of the image and the source. This contraction is a result of an equilibrium being made with the relative expansion.

The expansion and contraction of being necessitates all occuring through cycles with the cycle being the underlying form which exists across being. The cyclical nature of being manifests itself through further cycles thus approximating the one source through many. The cyclical nature of the reasoning of man is the cyclical nature of being manifesting itself under a new form.

The process of measurement of man is an extension of the source.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:43 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:14 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:38 pm V A

Plato once defined man as a being in search of meaning. .

You explain the search to experience our Source as the need for consolation: to avoid experiencing the question of our mortality. But what if the need to experience objective meaning is more than consolation? This is the essential question for both religion and philosophy. Why do we exist? It is a question needing more than consolation but a quality of consciousness we only have in potential.
It is not to avoid experiencing the question of mortality which is inevitable and unavoidable.
The question and seeking of meaning is driven by that cognitive dissonance arising from
  • 1. the inevitable and unavoidable mortality and

    2. the inescapable terrible pain and sufferings because man is endowed with an unavoidable self-awareness
, thus aware of 1.

These two unavoidabilities [cognitive dissonance] drive man to seek meaning to reconcile the logically "irreconcilable" 1 and 2.

The understand of "meaning" would then be a consolation to the cognitive dissonance.

Fortunately for man, the existence of a God [illusory] reified as real provide a pseudo-meaning to the cognitive dissonance that provided immediate relief.

The test:
If you reflect on it [God, One, Being and the likes] you will be able to feel the immediate relief yourself.
If you believe otherwise you will feel uncomfortable.
Whatever is light of your Source is a belief and when analyzed it is an illusion.
What counts is the psychological issue, not whether the Source is really-real or not.
How do you analyze the ONE as described by Plotinus to determine if it is an illusion or not?

https://iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
a. The One
....
If the ONE is essential reality, it is beyond the abilities of our superficial analysis to comprehend. If we are drawn to our Source by our need for meaning, how do we approach it if the solution is beyond what is revealed by analysis? How can we reason in new way?
The solution is to deal with the psychological issues surrounding the above inevitable cognitive dissonance inherent in human nature.

Buddhism recognized the inevitable cognitive dissonance and deal with it directly with various psychological principles and practices.
Instead of seeking "substance" "Essence" "ONE" or GOD, Buddhism recognize the reality of 'nothingness' or 'emptiness' - "Sunyata"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81
The concept of 'emptiness' also posed a cognitive issue and this is handled with the relevant principles and practices.
Protagoras would deny the search and call it imagination. Socrates would say that once we admit we know nothing, we may begin to “understand” something.
Note sure Protagoras called it 'imagination' but more appropriately an illusion or a meta-hallucination.
Point is there is no ultimate substance, essence, the ONE or God in-itself.

There are no things-in-themselves absolutely independent of man.
Man is the measure of all things.

That man cling to the ultimate substance, essence, the ONE or God in-itself as really real is due to psychology as a result of the cognitive dissonance from an existential crisis.
Man as the measure of all things necessitates all being as submitting to a singular source, thus all is connected through man as the singular source.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:50 pm
by Nick_A
Eod
Man as the measure of all things necessitates all being as submitting to a singular source, thus all is connected through man as the singular source.
We know that an octave described by Pythagoras contains the notes of the scale. Suppose the universe is a giant octave and the complimentary processes of involution (away from the source) and evolution consciously towards the source) sustain it. Consider these three levels of reality within the octave: the Source, Son, and Man. They are related as the three Cs are related on the piano: high C, middle C, and low C. They are the same but differ in pitch and in scale.

Man is low C and a unique place within the octave. The level of earth on the octave is where mechanical life can evolve to conscious life. Man has the potential to evolve from animal life into conscious life: from low C to middle C.

So when we speak of man being in the image of God, do we refer to the inner plurality of fallen animal Man and this chaotic being living in the world, or conscious Man who has attained inner unity and is able to say I AM uniting above and below; low C and middle C in the octave of Creation?

All the great Ways initiating with a conscious source on their own paths seek to awaken Man to its conscious potentials. The World denies and corrupts it from pre-conditioned habits and fears creating an illusory belief it itself we call ego

Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

Man denies the Ability to see himself (a healthy ego) so doesn't know what he is and remains in the prison of Plato's Cave. For those who have experienced the reality of the prison of Plat's Cave, the question becomes how to escape in order to become himself.

Re: Protagoras vs Socrates

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:01 pm
by Eodnhoj7
Nick_A wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:50 pm Eod
Man as the measure of all things necessitates all being as submitting to a singular source, thus all is connected through man as the singular source.
We know that an octave described by Pythagoras contains the notes of the scale. Suppose the universe is a giant octave and the complimentary processes of involution (away from the source) and evolution consciously towards the source) sustain it. Consider these three levels of reality within the octave: the Source, Son, and Man. They are related as the three Cs are related on the piano: high C, middle C, and low C. They are the same but differ in pitch and in scale.

Man is low C and a unique place within the octave. The level of earth on the octave is where mechanical life can evolve to conscious life. Man has the potential to evolve from animal life into conscious life: from low C to middle C.

So when we speak of man being in the image of God, do we refer to the inner plurality of fallen animal Man and this chaotic being living in the world, or conscious Man who has attained inner unity and is able to say I AM uniting above and below; low C and middle C in the octave of Creation?

All the great Ways initiating with a conscious source on their own paths seek to awaken Man to its conscious potentials. The World denies and corrupts it from pre-conditioned habits and fears creating an illusory belief it itself we call ego

Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

Man denies the Ability to see himself (a healthy ego) so doesn't know what he is and remains in the prison of Plato's Cave. For those who have experienced the reality of the prison of Plat's Cave, the question becomes how to escape in order to become himself.
The cave is an allegory created by man, even your stance is an interpretation made through man. You contradict yourself.