Philosophy Now Forum

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 4:41 pm The formative environment is the foundation upon which potential is formed
Because all potential pertains to the future then it is flexible not set in stone

It can't be the foundation. Where did it come from? Your past was somebody's future. Your formative environment was somebody's legacy.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 4:41 pm Even for those who believe that morality is objective its application is not predetermined because of free will

Not precisely, but as a range of socially acceptable behaviours - it's pretty narrow.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 5:03 pm
Either was pre-societal humans who invented moral societies, or moral societies always existed.

My anthropology isn't even armchair, but I don't think there was such a thing as " pre-societal humans". What immediately preceded humans was, I assume, a social animal. So I would say that for as long as there have been humans, there has been human society. Humans are a pretty ruthless and brutal species, and without any moral restraints, would probably have killed each other to the point of extinction long before recorded history even began. Those restraints -again, I am guessing- would have been reserved for the members of one's own social group; I doubt very much that members of another social group would have enjoyed any benefits from them.

Skepdick wrote:
Your past was somebodys future

The foundation is not absolute and so my past cannot absolutely determine someones future
This is not black and white but shades of grey because of random choices caused by free will

Morality evolves over time and so it cannot be objective otherwise society would never progress
Law is the codification of morality so law like morality is always in a constant state of evolution

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 3:36 pm How can God be irrelevant to the discussion when the point of view of one of the parties is based on, and entirely dependent on his presence?

Well, right, it would have to be...except that it's not merely one party, but a significant contingent of the opposing party, as well. Nietzsche and Dawkins, whom I mentioned before, are entirely in agreement with the proposition that IF God existed, it would make all the difference in the world to what we could say about morality. They just happen to insist that He doesn't exist, so they also insist that amorality (Dawkins) or being "beyond good and evil" (Nietzsche) follow from the denial of the existence of God.

The view that the existence or non-existence of God would make no difference, we find, is actually a minority idea, not one held by the majority of Atheists, and certainly not one held by the most astute of them. If Nietzsche is right, in fact, that supposition is made possible only by the fact that the villagers, as in Nietzsche's famous "Madman's Tale," are naive about that point, and have just failed to grasp it yet. They've thought they could keep believing in morality without God...they don't know yet that they can't.

As the madman himself puts it, "I have come too early...my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men."

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:05 pm The view that the existence or non-existence of God would make no difference, we find, is actually a minority idea, not one held by the majority of Atheists,

I can conceive of a God who has no interest in, nor plays any part in, human morality, that is why I say his existence would not necessarily make any difference. The God of your conception would, of course, make a great deal of difference.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:23 pm I can conceive of a God who has no interest in, nor plays any part in, human morality, that is why I say his existence would not necessarily make any difference.

The Deists hold that view, of course.

But even they would have to say that since the created world was created by the Deity, morality itself was one of his products, as was everything -- though lamentably, morality's true nature would be known only to Him, and the rest of us would probably just be guessing, so it's hard to say what difference it would make to us.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:23 pm I can conceive of a God who has no interest in, nor plays any part in, human morality, that is why I say his existence would not necessarily make any difference.

The Deists hold that view, of course.

But even they would have to say that since the created world was created by the Deity, morality itself was one of his products, as was everything -- though lamentably, morality's true nature would be known only to Him, and the rest of us would probably just be guessing, so it's hard to say what difference it would make to us.

Well I am not a Deist, or any other ist. You might wish to label me, I don't know, but I don't have to conform to anyone else's label. I just try to work things out for myself. I admit it is hard to know to what extent I am influenced by the ideas of others, all I can do is try to think for myself.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:23 pm I can conceive of a God who has no interest in, nor plays any part in, human morality, that is why I say his existence would not necessarily make any difference.

The Deists hold that view, of course.

But even they would have to say that since the created world was created by the Deity, morality itself was one of his products, as was everything -- though lamentably, morality's true nature would be known only to Him, and the rest of us would probably just be guessing, so it's hard to say what difference it would make to us.

As a deist, I tell you plainly: there ain't no guesswork about it.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:47 pm As a deist, I tell you plainly: there ain't no guesswork about it.

Are you a Deist, henry? What do Deists believe?

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:53 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:47 pm As a deist, I tell you plainly: there ain't no guesswork about it.

Are you a Deist, henry? What do Deists believe?

I believe *Crom built Reality and set in motion what's within Reality.

You'll have to ask other deist's for their particular takes on it.









*stolen from R. E. Howard...better than God or Creator or Prime Mover..and I get to use his cool quote...

He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?

Meaning: He made me a free will (self-directing & - responsible) and He gave me a compass (a moral sense). What I do with myself is on me.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:30 pm Well I am not a Deist, or any other ist. You might wish to label me, I don't know, but I don't have to conform to anyone else's label. I just try to work things out for myself. I admit it is hard to know to what extent I am influenced by the ideas of others, all I can do is try to think for myself.

Not a bad policy.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:23 pm I can conceive of a God who has no interest in, nor plays any part in, human morality, that is why I say his existence would not necessarily make any difference.

The Deists hold that view, of course.

But even they would have to say that since the created world was created by the Deity, morality itself was one of his products, as was everything -- though lamentably, morality's true nature would be known only to Him, and the rest of us would probably just be guessing, so it's hard to say what difference it would make to us.

As a deist, I tell you plainly: there ain't no guesswork about it.

Perhaps so. But if I remember your earlier comments, you do hold that conscience is a reliable guild, so it wouldn't be the case that the Deity left Deists without instructions...just that they would be said to come from conscience, not from revelation, correct?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 8:23 pm
I believe *Crom built Reality and set in motion what's within Reality.

You'll have to ask other deist's for their particular takes on it.









*stolen from R. E. Howard...better than God or Creator or Prime Mover..and I get to use his cool quote...

He dwells on a great mountain. What use to call on him? Little he cares if men live or die. Better to be silent than to call his attention to you; he will send you dooms, not fortune! He is grim and loveless, but at birth he breathes power to strive and slay into a man's soul. What else shall men ask of the gods?

Meaning: He made me a free will (self-directing & - responsible) and He gave me a compass (a moral sense). What I do with myself is on me.

I didn't know about any of that. Do you mind me asking if you care whether anybody else believes that? I've never even heard you mention it before, so I assume it isn't something you would go out of your way to persuade anyone else of.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 8:38 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 7:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 6:38 pm
The Deists hold that view, of course.

But even they would have to say that since the created world was created by the Deity, morality itself was one of his products, as was everything -- though lamentably, morality's true nature would be known only to Him, and the rest of us would probably just be guessing, so it's hard to say what difference it would make to us.

As a deist, I tell you plainly: there ain't no guesswork about it.

Perhaps so. But if I remember your earlier comments, you do hold that conscience is a reliable guild, so it wouldn't be the case that the Deity left Deists without instructions...just that they would be said to come from conscience, not from revelation, correct?

Every man has a compass: it's up to him whether he minds true north, yeah. So, no, it ain't guesswork.

Do you mind me asking if you care whether anybody else believes that?

Do I mind if other folks believe other things? Of course not: I have no church to support, no coffers to fill. My deism is mine; it's not a communal thing. Ain't nuthin' about it obligates me to convert folks.