Philosophy Now Forum

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:36 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:52 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am Is abortion an essential service?

Ohio Orders Abortion Clinics to Stop Performing ‘Elective’ Abortions
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020 ... abortions/

This emergency required eliminating the difference between abortion and infanticide. Since infanticide is just baby killing within a year after birth we have to extend abortions for a year after birth during the crisis. It is the PC thing to do.

For all intents and purposes, it seems that all abortions are elective, or else deemed essential to save the psychological health of the woman. There is a small percentage for medical reasons, I would guess the most common of them being chemo therapy for the mother, but modern medicine has done wonders with childbirth.

Would you say that's what is going on?

The point I was making is that Abortion can only be elective until chldbirth. If during an emergency, abortions are not allowed for being elective, is it fair that women lose their freedom and stuck with an unwanted baby? Obviously not. So the simple solution is to extend abortions to include infanticide which by definition extends the time for an additional year where abortions would be legal for the sake of protecting a woman's right to choose. Simple enough.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:25 pm Preventing the death of the mother is not elective surgery.

Are you now saying that abortion therefore is an 'essential' service?

Or, do you agree with me on that it always 'depends'?

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:25 pm When abortionists speak of the mother's health and welfare, they include "psychological" health.

Who exactly are 'abortionists'?

Is psychological health only what you want to refer to in your question now?

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:25 pm Is abortion in the name of psychological health* essential, or is it elective surgery?

* most abortions

That all, once again, 'depends'.

Is the mother having suicidal thoughts or not?

Does she want to kill herself if she is not allowed an abortion?

If yes, and there is one other human being who wants her to keep living, then it could be argued it is 'essential' that she has an abortion. Therefore, an answer to this most absurdly and stupidly 'generalized' question is, Yes abortion is "essential".

But, OBVIOUSLY, in another situation or circumstance the answer will be different.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:56 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:30 pm I already did, that's why I asked them.

Not feeling it.

Fair enough, I wasn't really paying attention.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:56 pmFeel free to submit your work at a later date, keeping in mind relevance to the thread topic, as always. I’m confident that if you apply yourself you can come up with something worthwhile.

Thank you for your confidence. So, in answer to your original question:

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 amIs abortion an essential service?

In my view, yes it is. It may well be that some women have abortions for no other reason than "stone-cold, fucked-up selfishness", but that doesn't apply to any of the women I know who have had abortions. None of them took it lightly.
Here's something that is worth considering:

"What sort of woman was most likely to take advantage of Roe v. Wade? Very often she was unmarried or in her teens or poor, and sometimes all three. What sort of future might her child have had? One study has shown that the typical child who went unborn in the earliest years of legalised abortion would have been 50 percent more likely than average to live in poverty; he would have also been 60 percent more likely to grow up with just one parent. These two factors - childhood poverty and a single parent household - are among the strongest predictors that a child will have a criminal future. Growing up in a single-parent home roughly doubles a child's propensity to commit crime. So does having a teenager mother. Another study has shown that low maternal education is the single most powerful factor leading to criminality.
In other words, the very factors that drove millions of American women to have an abortion also seemed to predict that their children, had they been born, would have led unhappy and possibly criminal lives."

-FREAKONOMICS Steven D. Levitt & Stephen J. Dubner.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am Is abortion an essential service?

Ohio Orders Abortion Clinics to Stop Performing ‘Elective’ Abortions
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020 ... abortions/

It should be illegal because there is a new person at the moment of conception that we have no right to decide about it.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am Is abortion an essential service?

Ohio Orders Abortion Clinics to Stop Performing ‘Elective’ Abortions
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020 ... abortions/

It should be illegal because there is a new person at the moment of conception that we have no right to decide about it.

Abortion would probably be essential for those who think of human beings as animals in a herd subject to the interference of animal husbandry, e.g., thinning the herd of the old, the sick, and those scheduled to make an appearance. However, since for the greater good many essential services have been suspended, such as routine dental cleaning, the Me monsters might consider exercising a bit of self-awareness and get in line like everyone else for their essentials.

uwot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:35 pm In my view, yes it is. It may well be that some women have abortions for no other reason than "stone-cold, fucked-up selfishness", but that doesn't apply to any of the women I know who have had abortions. None of them took it lightly.

Once I was scanning the radio reception while driving and I happened upon this preacher who right at that moment was asked a question.

Would you refuse abortion to a rape victim? He said, yes.

And I thought, whoa, I would like to hear his reasoning and what do you know, he then supplied it.

In his own words he said to look to the cause, and if rape is sufficiently unacceptable to society then society will change the cause so women are not raped, and if it is sufficiently unacceptable then society will effect that change.

And I thought that sucks for the victim, but rather than shut down rationality and launch a filthy stream of invective at the radio, or dismiss him as insane along with the billions who believe in the possibility of intelligence and power greater than the limitations of their own comprehension, I considered his logic.

It is rather impeccable.

For instance, I know a beautiful, charming, strong young woman who is both licensed to carry and goes most everywhere with her formidable dog friend. This is a consequence of clarity and awareness of society adapted to her capacity and means. She has the intelligence, teachings, and responsible nature to affect what is within her control and effect her intent as best she can.

If all women were of her capacity, mamas and papas interested in the survival of their boys would teach them well in the logistics of respect, which is more of a challenge in families where the government has supplanted the father causing a ridiculous percentage of babies to be born or aborted outside of a committed relationship.

An armed population does not make the society crazy. It makes the society more polite than it otherwise would be. The attitudes cultivated in unarmed societies could be a cause of snarling maniacs on the internet. The question is, what’s the cause of habitual irony that eventually fogs up all apprehension?

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:03 am

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 am Is abortion an essential service?

Ohio Orders Abortion Clinics to Stop Performing ‘Elective’ Abortions
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020 ... abortions/

It should be illegal because there is a new person at the moment of conception that we have no right to decide about it.

Abortion would probably be essential for those who think of human beings as animals in a herd subject to the interference of animal husbandry, e.g., thinning the herd of the old, the sick, and those scheduled to make an appearance. However, since for the greater good many essential services have been suspended, such as routine dental cleaning, the Me monsters might consider exercising a bit of self-awareness and get in line like everyone else for their essentials.

It could be essential only when the life of both mother and the child is in danger.

An armed population does not make the society crazy. It makes the society more polite than it otherwise would be.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:05 pm...I considered his logic.

It is rather impeccable.

The problem with impeccable logic is that the conclusions are only as good as the premises. Here's an example:

The sight of female flesh turns men turn into insatiable fuck monsters.
All women know this.
Therefore any woman who bares a bit of ankle is asking to be raped.

That's the logic of the Taliban and Islamic State.
From what I understand your argument is that:

Young and attractive women are at risk of being raped.
Having a dog with a machine gun will eliminate that risk.
Therefore, any woman not so equipped is behaving irresponsibly.

In both cases, the logic is impeccable, but in both cases at least one premise is false.

Walker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:05 pmAn armed population does not make the society crazy. It makes the society more polite than it otherwise would be.

That may be so, but the USA has more guns than people; they may be very polite, but they are more likely to be imprisoned than any other nationality on Earth, https://www.statista.com/statistics/262 ... habitants/
and about 5 times as likely to murder you than a European.

That may be so, but the USA has more guns than people; they may be very polite, but they are more likely to be imprisoned than any other nationality on Earth, https://www.statista.com/statistics/262 ... habitants/ and about 5 times as likely to murder you than a European.

We're a schizo lot about our guns: we want 'em but we don't want 'em.

uwot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:20 pm Young and attractive women are at risk of being raped.
Having a dog with a machine gun will eliminate that risk.
Therefore, any woman not so equipped is behaving irresponsibly.

Don't be silly. There's many ways to be responsible. Even Mitten Force will work under the right conditions.

This particular young woman has a high capacity. Athletic, intelligent, highly educated, high-earner. The manifestation of responsibility is commensurate with capacity, but the principle itself is responsibility.

A huge influx of lawless immigrants tends to drive up the criminal stats. Most of the shootings are inner-city gangs, and we're not talking about towheaded Opie from Kansas. Blame the initial cause of the huge prison population on social problems stemming from The Great Society, beginning in the sixties.

Are most abortions the result of rape? Rationality says no, but I haven't seen the data. Then again some women say that all sex is rape, so definitions tend to be fluid and subjective.

I heard that in the middle ages an irresponsible woman got to wear a chastity belt. Were those common or for royalty?

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:20 pm Young and attractive women are at risk of being raped.
Having a dog with a machine gun will eliminate that risk.
Therefore, any woman not so equipped is behaving irresponsibly.

Don't be silly.

You're right Walker, not every woman is so rapeable that they need to go to such lengths.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmThere's many ways to be responsible.

Indeed. For some a grumpy toad and a pea-shooter will be adequate protection. And for the real mooses:

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pm Even Mitten Force will work under the right conditions.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmThis particular young woman has a high capacity. Athletic, intelligent, highly educated, high-earner. The manifestation of responsibility is commensurate with capacity, but the principle itself is responsibility.

That's right ladies: have a look in the mirror and choose your weapons.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmA huge influx of lawless immigrants tends to drive up the criminal stats.

Well hurry up and give them guns! That will make them polite.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmMost of the shootings are inner-city gangs, and we're not talking about towheaded Opie from Kansas. Blame the initial cause of the huge prison population on social problems stemming from The Great Society, beginning in the sixties.

Those damned Hippies!

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmAre most abortions the result of rape? Rationality says no, but I haven't seen the data.

Would it never occur to you to look it up?

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmThen again some women say that all sex is rape, so definitions tend to be fluid and subjective.

So don't fuck those ones.

Walker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:26 pmI heard that in the middle ages an irresponsible woman got to wear a chastity belt. Were those common or for royalty?

Here, do some research if you want to know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chastity_belt

Good grief. That's a toxic interpretation, and rather immature.

Quite the little poison pen.

Apologies for the tardy reply since the thread faded into the active topics, which is where I reference.

However, I see I didn't miss much.

You're dismissed.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:37 pm It could be essential only when the life of both mother and the child is in danger.

That's a crucial point and for that reason, the psychological threat to the mother has been put under the same umbrella as an objective, adverse physical condition such as high blood pressure.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:57 amGood grief. That's a toxic interpretation...

It is exactly what you are advocating.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:57 am...and rather immature.

Well yeah, the grumpy toad was a bit daft. So what in your view would be a mature interpretation? A gun and a "formidable dog friend" for a woman with the 'capacity' of your acquaintance. What measures should less capacious women take?