"Your" Money & Taxation

[FlashDangerpants]

Obviously it is not JUST printed. It is also generated on a computer screen by banks through licence with the issuing authority which is the sovereign state.
This does not change the fact that all money is MADE by the state and when issued counts as government debt.

Nope. Here's the Bank of England explaining that the state does not create most of the money in circulation.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowled ... ey-created

You are simply not paying attention.
I said it is created on a computer by banks. The BoE oversees this with bank rules.

I just highlighted and coloured the bit where you were explicitly wrong.
Most money is not MADE by the state, and is not issued as government debt.

[Sculptor]

Nope. Here's the Bank of England explaining that the state does not create most of the money in circulation.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowled ... ey-created

You are simply not paying attention.
I said it is created on a computer by banks. The BoE oversees this with bank rules.

I just highlighted and coloured the bit where you were explicitly wrong.
Most money is not MADE by the state, and is not issued as government debt.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks by monitoring the monetary aggregates
When banks "create" money through credit that same amount is deleted from the banks account when it is paid off. This means that the aggregate amount of money supply in the economy can never be changed ultimately by banks alone, since they are not creating money other than in a temporary sense. The extra money they gain through this process is the interest. That is how banks profit. But that profit has to be supplied with the creation of fresh money, and that is only done by the state central bank.
The only real source of new money - that is an increase in the aggregate money supply of the nation is ONLY created by the central bank of the state.

[FlashDangerpants]

You are simply not paying attention.
I said it is created on a computer by banks. The BoE oversees this with bank rules.

I just highlighted and coloured the bit where you were explicitly wrong.
Most money is not MADE by the state, and is not issued as government debt.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks.

The state doesn't make the money. The money issued does not count as government debt. That's just all there is to it. Let it go.

[Sculptor]

I just highlighted and coloured the bit where you were explicitly wrong.
Most money is not MADE by the state, and is not issued as government debt.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks.

The state doesn't make the money. The money issued does not count as government debt. That's just all there is to it. Let it go.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks by monitoring the monetary aggregates
When banks "create" money through credit that same amount is deleted from the banks account when it is paid off. This means that the aggregate amount of money supply in the economy can never be changed ultimately by banks alone, since they are not creating money other than in a temporary sense. The extra money they gain through this process is the interest. That is how banks profit. But that profit has to be supplied with the creation of fresh money, and that is only done by the state central bank.
The only real source of new money - that is an increase in the aggregate money supply of the nation is ONLY created by the central bank of the state.

[FlashDangerpants]

The state controls all monies issued by the banks.

The state doesn't make the money. The money issued does not count as government debt. That's just all there is to it. Let it go.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks by monitoring the monetary aggregates
When banks "create" money through credit that same amount is deleted from the banks account when it is paid off. This means that the aggregate amount of money supply in the economy can never be changed ultimately by banks alone, since they are not creating money other than in a temporary sense. The extra money they gain through this process is the interest. That is how banks profit. But that profit has to be supplied with the creation of fresh money, and that is only done by the state central bank.
The only real source of new money - that is an increase in the aggregate money supply of the nation is ONLY created by the central bank of the state.

Erm, well you will have to make up your mind. In the one telling, from yourself, money is generated on a computer screen. In your other telling, that isn't money because it exists, as I already described, as both a credit and debt on two sides of ledger.

The only aggregate you seem to be counting is Base Money (M0). This is state backed and issued, but it isn't part of the state debt, the stuff that is deposited by banks in the central bank ... that stuff is in a ledger, as a credit and a debit, and it can be destroyed too, that is the plan for destroying QE money.

The majority of money (see the definition I gave earlier from the IMF) is in the other aggregates, M1 and M2, stuff which is mostly not state issued, and mostly not state debt either. The banks profits come from any money, not solely M0, because all money is money, so there is no difference between interest paid with money that is M0 and interest paid with money that is not M0.

[Sculptor]

The state doesn't make the money. The money issued does not count as government debt. That's just all there is to it. Let it go.

The state controls all monies issued by the banks by monitoring the monetary aggregates
When banks "create" money through credit that same amount is deleted from the banks account when it is paid off. This means that the aggregate amount of money supply in the economy can never be changed ultimately by banks alone, since they are not creating money other than in a temporary sense. The extra money they gain through this process is the interest. That is how banks profit. But that profit has to be supplied with the creation of fresh money, and that is only done by the state central bank.
The only real source of new money - that is an increase in the aggregate money supply of the nation is ONLY created by the central bank of the state.

Erm, well you will have to make up your mind. In the one telling, from yourself, money is generated on a computer screen. In your other telling, that isn't money because it exists, as I already described, as both a credit and debt on two sides of ledger.

The only aggregate you seem to be counting is Base Money (M0). This is state backed and issued, but it isn't part of the state debt, the stuff that is deposited by banks in the central bank ... that stuff is in a ledger, as a credit and a debit, and it can be destroyed too, that is the plan for destroying QE money.

The majority of money (see the definition I gave earlier from the IMF) is in the other aggregates, M1 and M2, stuff which is mostly not state issued, and mostly not state debt either. The banks profits come from any money, not solely M0, because all money is money, so there is no difference between interest paid with money that is M0 and interest paid with money that is not M0.

IN essence ALL money is government debt since it is the government that has ultimate responsibility to honour the bearer with the sum issued.
So when the banks have shut up shop it is up to the central bank to issue more.

[FlashDangerpants]

The state controls all monies issued by the banks by monitoring the monetary aggregates
When banks "create" money through credit that same amount is deleted from the banks account when it is paid off. This means that the aggregate amount of money supply in the economy can never be changed ultimately by banks alone, since they are not creating money other than in a temporary sense. The extra money they gain through this process is the interest. That is how banks profit. But that profit has to be supplied with the creation of fresh money, and that is only done by the state central bank.
The only real source of new money - that is an increase in the aggregate money supply of the nation is ONLY created by the central bank of the state.

Erm, well you will have to make up your mind. In the one telling, from yourself, money is generated on a computer screen. In your other telling, that isn't money because it exists, as I already described, as both a credit and debt on two sides of ledger.

The only aggregate you seem to be counting is Base Money (M0). This is state backed and issued, but it isn't part of the state debt, the stuff that is deposited by banks in the central bank ... that stuff is in a ledger, as a credit and a debit, and it can be destroyed too, that is the plan for destroying QE money.

The majority of money (see the definition I gave earlier from the IMF) is in the other aggregates, M1 and M2, stuff which is mostly not state issued, and mostly not state debt either. The banks profits come from any money, not solely M0, because all money is money, so there is no difference between interest paid with money that is M0 and interest paid with money that is not M0.

IN essence ALL money is government debt since it is the government that has ultimate responsibility to honour the bearer with the sum issued.
So when the banks have shut up shop it is up to the central bank to issue more.

That honour the bearer stuff evaporated with the introduction of fiat currency, it only makes any sort of sense at all when it refers to the money being backed by something other than money with which to do the honouring.

Bank deposits are insured by deposit insurance schemes, which are limited and do not cover all the contents of all bank accounts.

If you are aiming to promote MMT, I am genuinely giving you good advice when I suggest you drop the debt claim, you never needed it, and it will only hurt you.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The current 'neo-liberal' trend encourages people to be greedy, selfish turds with the view that only money counts, and if it ain't making money then bin it. ''Wah wah, I don't go to the library or read books so why should I pay for libraries? Bastards can buy their own books. Boo hoo, you are stealing MY money to pay for museums, the arts, schools ...wah wah, I don't give a shit about those things boo hoo hoo, get rid of the lot--they don't make PROFITS! I'm going to be in peak physical condition for the rest of my life and so should everyone else. I work my 'butt' off, so why should I help that man down the road with no arms or legs? Lazy bastard could be licking the roads clean if someone lifted him off his arse.... umm, oh yeah, that would mean someone being paid out of MY TAXES that I have WORKED MY BUTT OFF FOR, to lift him off his arse...hmmm, well he can just crawl to the road then.... Fuck him and his lazy arse ways''.
YUK YUK YUK. NLibturds are disgusting excuses for humanity.

[Sculptor]

Erm, well you will have to make up your mind. In the one telling, from yourself, money is generated on a computer screen. In your other telling, that isn't money because it exists, as I already described, as both a credit and debt on two sides of ledger.

The only aggregate you seem to be counting is Base Money (M0). This is state backed and issued, but it isn't part of the state debt, the stuff that is deposited by banks in the central bank ... that stuff is in a ledger, as a credit and a debit, and it can be destroyed too, that is the plan for destroying QE money.

The majority of money (see the definition I gave earlier from the IMF) is in the other aggregates, M1 and M2, stuff which is mostly not state issued, and mostly not state debt either. The banks profits come from any money, not solely M0, because all money is money, so there is no difference between interest paid with money that is M0 and interest paid with money that is not M0.

IN essence ALL money is government debt since it is the government that has ultimate responsibility to honour the bearer with the sum issued.
So when the banks have shut up shop it is up to the central bank to issue more.

That honour the bearer stuff evaporated with the introduction of fiat currency, it only makes any sort of sense at all when it refers to the money being backed by something other than money with which to do the honouring.

I do not think so. As the ultimate responsibility for the health of the currency rests with the state, the honour the bearer still stands. I would argue that it has more meaning under a fiat system than one linked to the value of some arbitrary thing. What exactly was the "pound" in " I promise the pay the bearer the sum of one Pound"? A pound if what? Cheese? The promise has always been ambiguous, but its more honest now than it was before.

Bank deposits are insured by deposit insurance schemes, which are limited and do not cover all the contents of all bank accounts.

If you are aiming to promote MMT, I am genuinely giving you good advice when I suggest you drop the debt claim, you never needed it, and it will only hurt you.

I think not.
If it's true, as it seems to be, then MMT will have to accommodate it. And I think it can.
Fiat or no the government can and does withdraw the right to increase, restrict or decrease the money supply regardless of having to apply it to any arbitrary standard such as gold, or silver - both of which are useless in this regard since the value of those metals fluctuate according to supply and demand, or situations of monopoly. hoarding etc.