Philosophy Now Forum

Skepdick wrote:
I was empirically testing whether you respond to Logos or Pathos

Those links do not work so he cannot respond to them even if he wanted to

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:59 pm

Skepdick wrote:
I was empirically testing whether you respond to Logos or Pathos

Those links do not work so he cannot respond to them even if he wanted to

Argh! Second time today. Thanks for the heads up. Fixed.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:24 pm If an idea is a negative then it can be an idea; but it cannot be a system of belief.

Saying it cannot be a belief system is still a belief. It's the belief that a belief cannot be a belief system. This is knowledge,and knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality. So even the idea of nondual reality is a fiction because there is simply no one to know that. There's the apparent belief that reality is nondual.

That's the point I'm trying to make.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:16 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:24 pm If an idea is a negative then it can be an idea; but it cannot be a system of belief.

Saying it cannot be a belief system is still a belief.
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bollocks!

Bollocks is not a system of belief either.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 pm


Bollocks is not a system of belief either.

Is that what you believe?

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 pm


Bollocks is not a system of belief either.

Is that what you believe?

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No. It's what I know.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 pm


Bollocks is not a system of belief either.

Is that what you believe?

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No. It's what I know.

Knowing does not claim to know.

There is no I that knows. I is known by no known I except as believed, no belief, no story of I

.

Those who falsely claim that they're offering proof and facts when they're only offering selected opinions and beliefs are the same ones who frequently demand proof from others. They do this as if posturing that they themselves provide proof, when clearly they don't. They also reject/ignore any examples or "factual" responses that are offered if the information conflicts with their beliefs or agenda. It's a big dishonest game. And it's so obvious, I don't know how anyone can carry on in such a way as if it's believable.

"Proof" is typically subject to interpretation, which isn't really proof at all. Selected "facts" don't point to a complete truth! An argument or statement can be insightful, compelling, and/or convincing, without adhering to a bunch of fake stuffy rules. Arguments or statements that claim to follow such rules, could be a load of crap. I think philosophy -- and wisdom through awareness -- has existed for humans from their beginning. It does not require any rules or templates -- and to suggest that it must is just a controlling measure to limit awareness in favor of claiming to know. Flexibility and exploration/expansion vs. ego and fear.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:04 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm

Is that what you believe?

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No. It's what I know.

Knowing does not claim to know.

There is no I that knows. I is known by no known I except as believed, no belief, no story of I

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Get a life FFS.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:29 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:04 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 pm
No. It's what I know.

Knowing does not claim to know.

There is no I that knows. I is known by no known I except as believed, no belief, no story of I

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Get a life FFS.

Nonduality is also a belief system, but one which wipes itself and the believer away. I don't think you quite grasp what that is saying to you, but your not alone, the human mind can be compared to a rock, it doesn't exist except as a belief, and rocks are pretty much dumb as most empty words are. Words are empty to their core.

To know you know anything is just a belief. Beliefs are a big fat porky LIE ...they are fictions, were all pretenders here, just actors on a stage, full of empty words, your no exception, no belief, no player. You are no thing, but in order for no thing to be a thing you have to make-believe that thing into existence, a thing/concept is a fictional addition to what you already are which is not-a-thing.
There is no such thing as non-duality because non-duality is not-a-thing.

Just get your facts straight before claiming you know what you are talking about regarding this topic thread FFS

I do not demand or expect you to understand my views on reality, so there is really no need for you to hurl abuse at me.
But I can understand you wanting to throw rocks at the messenger, aka the mirror in your frustration to know, the mind cannot stand the not-knowing part of itself, it's normal, it doesn't have many followers.

From belief to clarity.

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Dontaskme wrote:
Nonduality is also a belief system

I would not describe it like that at all but would instead say that nonduality is the nature of reality
There are no gaps in it so it so it can only be nondual as everything is connected to everything else

You may say that reality is simply a fiction created by the illusion of knowledge and I would disagree with this
Even if that was true and it was an illusion then if that illusion is convincing enough it will be regarded as real

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 am

I would not describe it like that at all but would instead say that non-duality is the nature of reality

But to know nonduality is the nature of reality is knowledge. Non-dual reality cannot know it is non-dual because knowledge is dual, there is no such thing as a knowing non-dual reality because a known reality is only ever duality...aka knowledge which informs the nature of reality as a fictional overlay upon not-knowing nondual reality. There is no knowing of a non-dual reality...non-dual is only ever duality aka the mind of knowledge.
Knowledge is the mind defining itself as something known, and that which is known knows nothing of it's knower because the mind is the only knowing there is. The mind knows itself only as a concept, but can never experience itself as the concept it knows because concepts do not exist apart from the knowing mind... the mind doesn't experience itself as the knower because it is already being the knowing, it is the knowing that cannot be known.To know you know nature is non-dual is a fiction upon the real reality that is without knowing.

Any claim to know stems from our beliefs about something, in this case the nature of reality that is believed to be real as concepts are known, but this knowing is only ever sourced in not-knowing, and not in a known knower, because the known know nothing...and so any thing known is just an assumption, or a speculation or a belief.

From google: '' Knowledge is defined as the small fraction of our beliefs that actually meet the scientific standard of evidence. As such, knowledge represents the small fraction of our beliefs that are actually True. Therefore knowledge is by definition “True belief(s)”. As mentioned previously, knowledge is a subset of Truth.''
In other words, the fictional concept is as much a truth as is the absolute truth that is always here right now known by no one.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 amThere are no gaps in it so it so it can only be nondual as everything is connected to everything else

Again, this is knowledge what comes from our (minds) beliefs about something. Real reality is not-a-thing knowing. Things don't know, things are knowledge, therefore knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality, appearing as thoughts/beliefs/characteristics/attributes of this not-a-thing knowing.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 amYou may say that reality is simply a fiction created by the illusion of knowledge and I would disagree with this

I never said that at all, that's just how you have interpreted what I've said to be what you think I said or meant.
Reality is not a fiction or an illusion, because there is no reality apart from the story about it, all that's known about reality is the story the minds says about it which is a fiction. Reality does not know of it's existence, but the mind that is part of this not-knowing places upon itself an interpretation of what it thinks it is as believed to be real, as in what seems real to the mind. But reality IS without doubt before any known ism's come on the scene because the ism's are the same not-knowing reality defining itself as an ism...which is actually nothingness being everything. The real is fiction and the fiction is real.

Only the mind is born here. Not the non-dual self. But the non-dual self cannot exist without a concept of itself aka knowledge and belief. And that is why like I keep saying (Nonduality is also a belief system, but one which wipes itself and the believer away) because there simply is no believer without a belief, and no belief without a believer, they are one in the same instant, namely, this non-dual reality.

surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 amEven if that was true and it was an illusion then if that illusion is convincing enough it will be regarded as real

Of course because the illusion is real else it wouldn't work the way it does. It was meant to look real else life for the mind would be in a constantly unchanging state of thoughtless pure awareness much like the state of deep dreamless sleep.
Notice the mind is never still, thoughts are constantly streaming in and out of it, and as and each thought arises they are known by this not-knowing mind that never changes only appearing to change as thought aka knowledge dictates or is believed to be real.

The mind that is real is also unreal and vice versa. Not this, not that, both and yet neither.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:39 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:29 am

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:04 pm


Knowing does not claim to know.

There is no I that knows. I is known by no known I except as believed, no belief, no story of I

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Get a life FFS.

Nonduality is also a belief system,

It does not matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still wrong.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:59 pm It does not matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still wrong.

That's just a silly truism! I am wrong, you are wrong, Dontaskme is wrong, we are all wrong!

It's a principle of science that "All models are wrong, some are useful".

But as Asimov argues, wrongness is relative.

"When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

In a game where everybody is wrong, the objective isn't to be right. The objective is to be less wrong.

Wrong relative to WHAT is the question? In a verbal universe where anything can be said about anything what is 'wrongness'?

P.S If you want to play the silly Sophist language games then my rebuttal is "You are wrong about me being wrong!"

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:59 pm

It does not matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still wrong.

To know truth is to lie, and that is the truth.