The 'Mirror Test' and Self-Consciousness of "I"

[Dontaskme]

Note your use of 'The You' which is an reification.
Again, you may introduce all sorts of terms but as long at you are with advaita vedanta principles, there is reification as driven by a psychological impulse.

The ''YOU''

IS NOT a reification.

For a reification to be made possible, You has to be.

The You that appears ro reify...never once retified, except in this conception, an illusion.

The You has never be conceived, any conception is an illusion...it's a ''thought'' a ''belief'' in YOU...but NOT YOU.

That leaves this immediate unborn presence that cannot be denied ..for who is going to deny UNBORN PRESENCE ? ..no thing was ever born.

Imagine that, that which exists as an illusory thing, denying it's non-existence.

Non-existence is impossible.

Existence is knowledge...the impossible possible.

Life has no knowledge of itself per-se, Life is the knowing. It is the unknown knowing. The impossible possible. The endless void of pure potential.

It knows how to guide a sperm to the egg, how to grow into a full sized baby, how to push the resulting life form out of the womb, how to keep a the heart beating, and the list is endless.

No human knows anything or is doing anything.

The You is not human. The ''human'' is knowledge known. And that which is known cannot know anything.

All ''known things'' are of not-knowing awareness...the unknowable source. You are that.

There is no ''you'' claiming the title ''you''

There is no you because there is no other than you.

Who would the other you be claiming itself..but it's own same self?

.

.

[Atla]

Another question is;

Other than humans and some others, do all living things down to one-cell living things has a potential of an independent "I" that they are not conscious of?
I don't think so.

Self recognition is restricted to a few animals and only humans are capable to recognizing an "I." This is because they have evolved with the potential to do so.

Organisms do seem to require a brain/mind of at least a few ten billion neurons, for self-awareness to form. It arises naturally, in fact I think that some elephants and whales might have an even stronger natural self-awareness than humans.

But humans are the only species that also form a hallucination, the "I", from this self-awareness, due to culture/language/genes/gene expression etc. There is circular identification. Then some humans go on to realize that this "I" is illusory, and then they go on to use identification to realize that they are reality itself.

So a handful of species on this planet are self-aware, but lack an "I".

[Veritas Aequitas]

Another question is;

Other than humans and some others, do all living things down to one-cell living things has a potential of an independent "I" that they are not conscious of?
I don't think so.

Self recognition is restricted to a few animals and only humans are capable to recognizing an "I." This is because they have evolved with the potential to do so.

Organisms do seem to require a brain/mind of at least a few ten billion neurons, for self-awareness to form. It arises naturally, in fact I think that some elephants and whales might have an even stronger natural self-awareness than humans.

But humans are the only species that also form a hallucination, the "I", from this self-awareness, due to culture/language/genes/gene expression etc. There is circular identification. Then some humans go on to realize that this "I" is illusory, and then they go on to use identification to realize that they are reality itself.

So a handful of species on this planet are self-aware, but lack an "I".

There are two views of the "I" i.e.

• 1. the empirical 'I" - the "I" that thinks.
  2. the transcendental "I" - the "I AM" that survives physical death.

The empirical "I" is the practical "I" that each individual identify themselves to differentiate from other individual "I"s. This is a necessity and there is no issue with this concept of "I."

What is illusory is that "I AM" which many believe to be a permanent soul and survives physical death in heaven/paradise or somewhere.

This reification of a permanent soul is driven by a psychological existential crisis.
To resolve this crisis an illusory God is conjured to grant eternal life to that "I" in heaven/paradise.

The very critical problem is when theists believe such a God is so real that it delivered his message in holy texts and these contain evil laden commands exhorting believers to kill believers in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven/paradise. This point is very evident with Islam.

[Atla]

There are two views of the "I" i.e.

• 1. the empirical 'I" - the "I" that thinks.
  2. the transcendental "I" - the "I AM" that survives physical death.

The empirical "I" is the practical "I" that each individual identify themselves to differentiate from other individual "I"s. This is a necessity and there is no issue with this concept of "I."

No, this is outdated. There are at least three "I"s.

1.a the empirical self-awareness
1.b the empirical 'I" - the "I" that thinks.
2. the transcendental "I" - the "I AM" that survives physical death.[/quote]

A handful of species have 1.a, humans have 1.a and 1.b.

Eastern philosophies too have always made the mistake of mixing 1.a and 1.b together without realizing, which has lead to all kinds of craziness, especially in Buddhism. You can't get rid of 1.a without literally cutting out a big chunk of your brain, which is rather unadvised. Self-awareness will always be there for almost everyone, and we can mostly dismantle the 1.b "I" but usually it will always pop up again because of the underlying raw self-awareness.

Some Buddhists try to dismantle the "I" completely, and also think that there is no raw self-awareness behind it, which is perhaps the main reason why some Buddhists are so damn delusional.

This reification of a permanent soul is driven by a psychological existential crisis.
To resolve this crisis an illusory God is conjured to grant eternal life to that "I" in heaven/paradise.

Often it's driven by existentital crisis/existential angst, but definitely not always. Reducing it to one cause when it can have several, is misleading.

The very critical problem is when theists believe such a God is so real that it delivered his message in holy texts and these contain evil laden commands exhorting believers to kill believers in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven/paradise. This point is very evident with Islam.

I'll only say one thing about Islam, if humanity is to survive, Islam must go.

[Veritas Aequitas]

There are two views of the "I" i.e.

• 1. the empirical 'I" - the "I" that thinks.
  2. the transcendental "I" - the "I AM" that survives physical death.

The empirical "I" is the practical "I" that each individual identify themselves to differentiate from other individual "I"s. This is a necessity and there is no issue with this concept of "I."

No, this is outdated. There are at least three "I"s.

1.a the empirical self-awareness
1.b the empirical 'I" - the "I" that thinks.
2. the transcendental "I" - the "I AM" that survives physical death.

A handful of species have 1.a, humans have 1.a and 1.b.

There can be many shades of the empirical "I" for discussion.
What is most contentious is the other claim for the transcendental "I AM" that is permanent and can survives physical death in some heaven/paradise or elsewhere.

Eastern philosophies too have always made the mistake of mixing 1.a and 1.b together without realizing, which has lead to all kinds of craziness, especially in Buddhism. You can't get rid of 1.a without literally cutting out a big chunk of your brain, which is rather unadvised. Self-awareness will always be there for almost everyone, and we can mostly dismantle the 1.b "I" but usually it will always pop up again because of the underlying raw self-awareness.

Some Buddhists try to dismantle the "I" completely, and also think that there is no raw self-awareness behind it, which is perhaps the main reason why some Buddhists are so damn delusional.

It is not only some Buddhists but other Eastern philosophers as well who denounced the "I" completely.
Buddhism proper has its two-truth theory which detaches the empirical "I" and engages the empirical "I" in the right context, thus the Middle Path and not leaning to any extreme.

This reification of a permanent soul is driven by a psychological existential crisis.
To resolve this crisis an illusory God is conjured to grant eternal life to that "I" in heaven/paradise.

Often it's driven by existential crisis/existential angst, but definitely not always. Reducing it to one cause when it can have several, is misleading.

I believe the idea of God leveraged on the existential crisis is the most critical and of the heaviest weightage in terms of threat to humanity.
What other cause do you have in mind?

The very critical problem is when theists believe such a God is so real that it delivered his message in holy texts and these contain evil laden commands exhorting believers to kill believers in exchange for a promise of eternal life in heaven/paradise. This point is very evident with Islam.

I'll only say one thing about Islam, if humanity is to survive, Islam must go.

Agree.

[Atla]

Often it's driven by existential crisis/existential angst, but definitely not always. Reducing it to one cause when it can have several, is misleading.

I believe the idea of God leveraged on the existential crisis is the most critical and of the heaviest weightage in terms of threat to humanity.
What other cause do you have in mind?

Imo many people believe that they are a permanent soul, and that there is a God, even without any existential crisis. The "I" forms early, around 2-4 years of age, so it just seems like obvious, unquestioned, that the "I" is always there. We then project this permanent "I", and arrive at the idea of God, which is a big daddy permanent "I".

The existential crisis tends to set it later in life, when most people start to more understand and confront the idea of death, impermanence.

We also have many people having weird spiritual experiences / hallucinations where they honestly become convinced that the "I" lasts forever.

There are also even stranger causes. Some people are born with split minds, or their mind is split later on. There are also people in psychosis etc.
Such people can experience from one fragment of their that another fragment of their mind is talking to them, but they experience it as coming "from the outside". So almost all of them automatically fell like God is literally talking to them.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Often it's driven by existential crisis/existential angst, but definitely not always. Reducing it to one cause when it can have several, is misleading.

I believe the idea of God leveraged on the existential crisis is the most critical and of the heaviest weightage in terms of threat to humanity.
What other cause do you have in mind?

Imo many people believe that they are a permanent soul, and that there is a God, even without any existential crisis. The "I" forms early, around 2-4 years of age, so it just seems like obvious, unquestioned, that the "I" is always there. We then project this permanent "I", and arrive at the idea of God, which is a big daddy permanent "I".

That is a great point.

The existential crisis tends to set it later in life, when most people start to more understand and confront the idea of death, impermanence.

I had used the term 'existential crisis' quite loosely here.
I agree to your point that the existential crisis is manifested more consciously later in life [especially late teens] that compels the person toward theism, e.g. when a non-theist separated from his/her parents and all alone in a dorm or is in a 'fox-hole' and confronted with the reality of an existential crisis.

Note another point at the later end of life,

Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God
Across the world, people have varying levels of belief (and disbelief) in God, with some nations being more devout than others.
But new research reveals one constant across parts of the globe: As people age, their belief in God seems to increase.
https://www.livescience.com/19971-belie ... m-age.html

My point is, DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with the potential for an existential crisis/dilemma/angst.

This potential is activated in a range and continuum of degrees where some will even turn to God without being aware and experiencing an existential crisis, i.e. they are subliminally driven to theism or even support theists and theism, e.g. the Islam-apologists and the agnostics.

We also have many people having weird spiritual experiences / hallucinations where they honestly become convinced that the "I" lasts forever.

True, many non-theists converted to theism after having such experiences via drugs, hallucinogen, brain damage, mental illness [temporal epilepsy, schizophrenia, etc], out-of-the blue, etc.

There are also even stranger causes. Some people are born with split minds, or their mind is split later on. There are also people in psychosis etc.
Such people can experience from one fragment of their that another fragment of their mind is talking to them, but they experience it as coming "from the outside". So almost all of them automatically fell like God is literally talking to them.

Yes, e.g. the schizophrenics especially. That should make a critical thinker doubt whether all the so-called founders of religions who claimed God spoke to them directly could probably had suffered some kind of mental disorder or had taken hallucinogenic mushrooms. Muhammad is one popular candidate for this topic.

There could be but I have not yet read of cases of people who suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder experiencing God. Will take note of this point.

[Atla]

My point is, DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with the potential for an existential crisis/dilemma/angst.

This potential is activated in a range and continuum of degrees where some will even turn to God without being aware and experiencing an existential crisis, i.e. they are subliminally driven to theism or even support theists and theism, e.g. the Islam-apologists and the agnostics.

Is the main culprit really the DNA, or is it more like the ability for abstract existential thinking plus more and more knowledge about how the world actually seems to work?

I don't think that humans are DNA-wise predetermined for an existential-crisis, just like other species aren't. But DNA and gene expression can certainly be lesser factors too.

Muhammad is one popular candidate for this topic.

I think Muhammad was a schizophrenic or otherwise split-minded psychopath..
Oops, now I said two things about Islam.

[Veritas Aequitas]

My point is, DNA wise ALL humans are embedded with the potential for an existential crisis/dilemma/angst.

This potential is activated in a range and continuum of degrees where some will even turn to God without being aware and experiencing an existential crisis, i.e. they are subliminally driven to theism or even support theists and theism, e.g. the Islam-apologists and the agnostics.

Is the main culprit really the DNA, or is it more like the ability for abstract existential thinking plus more and more knowledge about how the world actually seems to work?

I don't think that humans are DNA-wise predetermined for an existential-crisis, just like other species aren't. But DNA and gene expression can certainly be lesser factors too.

It's the DNA that is the blue print that provide the architecture of human nature that facilitate the potential existential crisis make it active in most people.

It is our DNA that feature inevitable mortality and set up all the generic primal instincts, the emotions and higher significant degree of self-awareness than other species.

With such ingredients and the recipe driven by the RNA it is inevitable that the existential crisis will emerge to compel the majority into theism and others to seek all sort of secular remedies to find relief for the existential Angst.

Muhammad is one popular candidate for this topic.

I think Muhammad was a schizophrenic or otherwise split-minded psychopath..
Oops, now I said two things about Islam.
[/quote]
Oops.. you are now a racist?

Based on historical data it is not that serious but it is most likely to be temporal epilepsy and something similar.

[Atla]

It's the DNA that is the blue print that provide the architecture of human nature that facilitate the potential existential crisis make it active in most people.

It is our DNA that feature inevitable mortality and set up all the generic primal instincts, the emotions and higher significant degree of self-awareness than other species.

With such ingredients and the recipe driven by the RNA it is inevitable that the existential crisis will emerge to compel the majority into theism and others to seek all sort of secular remedies to find relief for the existential Angst.

Yes, but the existential crisis itself isn't coded in our DNA. We could then also go back further and say that the apparent laws of physics facilitate the DNA, so they cause it, and so on.

Yes now that most people are self-aware, they don't want to stop existing, don't want to die, don't want utter meaninglessness and oblivion, I think that's pretty understandable.

[Veritas Aequitas]

It's the DNA that is the blue print that provide the architecture of human nature that facilitate the potential existential crisis make it active in most people.

It is our DNA that feature inevitable mortality and set up all the generic primal instincts, the emotions and higher significant degree of self-awareness than other species.

With such ingredients and the recipe driven by the RNA it is inevitable that the existential crisis will emerge to compel the majority into theism and others to seek all sort of secular remedies to find relief for the existential Angst.

Yes, but the existential crisis itself isn't coded in our DNA. We could then also go back further and say that the apparent laws of physics facilitate the DNA, so they cause it, and so on.

Yes now that most people are self-aware, they don't want to stop existing, don't want to die, don't want utter meaninglessness and oblivion, I think that's pretty understandable.

Yes, the existential crisis is not coded in our DNA.
The existential crisis is an inevitable potential and manifestation emerging from a rather complex combination of certain imperative elements generated by the DNA. There are a few more stages from the DNA to how the existential crisis manifest subconsciously and consciously.

We could go back within evolution to understand how our DNA were programmed from 4 billions years ago till now. This point is relevant.

We could get back to the laws of physics to account for the physical elements and speculate on how life could emerge from physical matters. But this is not relevant to the topic.

For the purpose of the "I" God [theism] and religion, it is sufficient to explore the human DNA and how it has evolved from one-celled living things 4 billions years ago.

Thus it is critical we understand how our DNA leads to the existential crisis then to theism [some with potential for terrible evil] and certain secular ideologies that also has evil potential.
Once we understand the specific mechanism we can modulate the variables [with foolproof approaches] that are controllable within our ability to prevent the consequential evil acts.

[Atla]

Yes, the existential crisis is not coded in our DNA.
The existential crisis is an inevitable potential and manifestation emerging from a rather complex combination of certain imperative elements generated by the DNA. There are a few more stages from the DNA to how the existential crisis manifest subconsciously and consciously.

We could go back within evolution to understand how our DNA were programmed from 4 billions years ago till now. This point is relevant.

We could get back to the laws of physics to account for the physical elements and speculate on how life could emerge from physical matters. But this is not relevant to the topic.

For the purpose of the "I" God [theism] and religion, it is sufficient to explore the human DNA and how it has evolved from one-celled living things 4 billions years ago.

Thus it is critical we understand how our DNA leads to the existential crisis then to theism [some with potential for terrible evil] and certain secular ideologies that also has evil potential.
Once we understand the specific mechanism we can modulate the variables [with foolproof approaches] that are controllable within our ability to prevent the consequential evil acts.

Self-awareness seem to appear spontaneously in organisms with a few ten billion neurons. It's a "side-effect" of tens of billions of neurons being coded in the DNA. But of course once an organism is self-aware, that self-awareness will have a mild influence on it's further evolution.

What exactly are you trying to get rid of by modulating variables? We can't get rid of self-awareness by modulating variables, and no one wants to get rid of it either. We also can't get rid of our knowledge about the world and civilization in general, and no one wants to get rid of it either.

And this world, human existence can be pretty shitty overall, we can't get rid of the world.

Maybe you are pretending that the existential crisis can be handled and solved as just some technical problem, because you haven't been able to handle your own existential crisis?

[Veritas Aequitas]

Yes, the existential crisis is not coded in our DNA.
The existential crisis is an inevitable potential and manifestation emerging from a rather complex combination of certain imperative elements generated by the DNA. There are a few more stages from the DNA to how the existential crisis manifest subconsciously and consciously.

We could go back within evolution to understand how our DNA were programmed from 4 billions years ago till now. This point is relevant.

We could get back to the laws of physics to account for the physical elements and speculate on how life could emerge from physical matters. But this is not relevant to the topic.

For the purpose of the "I" God [theism] and religion, it is sufficient to explore the human DNA and how it has evolved from one-celled living things 4 billions years ago.

Thus it is critical we understand how our DNA leads to the existential crisis then to theism [some with potential for terrible evil] and certain secular ideologies that also has evil potential.
Once we understand the specific mechanism we can modulate the variables [with foolproof approaches] that are controllable within our ability to prevent the consequential evil acts.

Self-awareness seem to appear spontaneously in organisms with a few ten billion neurons. It's a "side-effect" of tens of billions of neurons being coded in the DNA. But of course once an organism is self-aware, that self-awareness will have a mild influence on it's further evolution.

What exactly are you trying to get rid of by modulating variables? We can't get rid of self-awareness by modulating variables, and no one wants to get rid of it either. We also can't get rid of our knowledge about the world and civilization in general, and no one wants to get rid of it either.

And this world, human existence can be pretty shitty overall, we can't get rid of the world.

Maybe you are pretending that the existential crisis can be handled and solved as just some technical problem, because you haven't been able to handle your own existential crisis?

We cannot get rid of the inherent features and the forceful impulses of the existential dilemma/crisis/Angst but we can inhibit the inherent impulses.
It is just like we cannot get rid of a river system and the water-cycle but we can build dams to modulate the unavoidable terrible forces of the river system, e.g. Yangtze, Nile, Amazon, etc.

The most effective means [and relied by the majority 85% of people] to suppress and inhibit the inherent unavoidable existential crisis is theism, especially those of the Abraham religions, i.e. just believe and viola one is saved and immediately relieved of the psychological pains and Angst. But these theistic suppression of the existential crisis is too crude and they come with the side effects of inspiring evil acts in SOME believers [of critical quantum].

The existential crisis at present is also being modulated by more effective approaches that are more effective than crude theism but they are based on a black-box basis, e.g. are Buddhism, other Eastern religions, existential psychology, etc. These approaches has method to cultivate effective neural inhibitors to dampen the inherent impulses of the existential dilemma. I am using a combination of the above methods [mainly from Buddhism and philosophy] to modulate my inherent existential dilemma.

As we know, relying on the black-box is vulnerable to side effects that are negative.
Thus we need to explore further [we already has the basic tool but need more precision] to go inside the black box to modulate the relevant targeted variables to prevent negative side effects.

Btw, do not slip into the 'mad scientist Frankenstein' factor, whatever is to be done must be 'absolutely' fool proof and on a volunteer basis when the average person's IQ, EQ, MQ [moral], SQ[spiritual], PQ [philosophical wisdom], has increased significantly to an effective level.

[Atla]

when the average person's IQ, EQ, MQ [moral], SQ[spiritual], PQ [philosophical wisdom], has increased significantly to an effective level.

Would that happen, most people would automatically stop being theists and turn to more "black-box" type approaches.

But humans would have to be genetically modified for that on an extremely high level, maybe that could be possible worldwide in 100-200 years.

The only other method I can think of is damaging the left temporal lobe, which can in some cases unlock savant-like abilities in normal people. But it can have serious drawbacks, especially with sensory processing and coordination.

[Veritas Aequitas]

when the average person's IQ, EQ, MQ [moral], SQ[spiritual], PQ [philosophical wisdom], has increased significantly to an effective level.

Would that happen, most people would automatically stop being theists and turn to more "black-box" type approaches.

But humans would have to be genetically modified for that on an extremely high level, maybe that could be possible worldwide in 100-200 years.

The only other method I can think of is damaging the left temporal lobe, which can in some cases unlock savant-like abilities in normal people. But it can have serious drawbacks, especially with sensory processing and coordination.

I agree, it will not happen now, but there is the potential of possibility within the next 50 years? if not 75 or >100.

Not genetically modified, that is too dangerous as the next phase.
There will not be any damage to any parts of the brain at all.
What is expected is to enhance the strength of the existing and trigger new inhibitors and activators.

For example, a baby is born with certain very loose connections and they get connected soon after birth, e.g. self-awareness at around 2 years old and other connectivities happen even during puberty.

Therefore there are opportunities for the neurons to be rewired during a person's lifetime.

There loads of training available at present for example, impulse controls, getting rid of phobias, and other self-developing programs, e.g. Neuro-linguistic Programming. Learning new knowledge and skills involve new connections and rewiring of the neurons.
For example, in the case of striving to be the best in sports, most coaches are very familiar with the necessary specific training to rewire the specific motor neurons [albeit in a black box approach] and other faculties to produce good sport people.

Thus what I am discussing is the understanding of the precise neural network involve in the workings of the existential crisis and its effects [especially negative ones]. From there we develop methods and techniques [fool proof] to strengthen the relevant inhibitors and activators to modulate the impulses of the existential crisis to prevent them triggering paths that leads to evil acts.