Philosophy Now Forum

Science Fan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:05 pm The irony of Nick A is that all of his comments involve nonsensical religious indoctrination, while he claims secularists have closed minds.

A very harmful characteristic of secularism is its belief that the invitation to awaken is indoctrination. Granted the need to awaken is taken advantage of by all sorts of charlatans putting the person in need in a very dangerous position. How to recognize the charlatans?

Nick A: There you go again, writing a comment that means nothing absent your bigotry to sustain it. I'll stick to factual reality.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:25 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:53 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:16 pm
If there's just everything which there is..then everything is already a given including higher values.

Humans are the reflection of God's energy light ..the shadow self is always below the castor, so you are right in saying it's top down and not bottom up...it is our fall from grace that is the cause of our selfishness which in turn gives rise to the beast because we are not selfless enough to balance the power of shadow and light distribution and transformation of both polarities as being one and the same energy. It has been the cause of the rise and fall of every human civilisation. We are not civilised until we see the God in our self, rather than being separate or some distant unattainable thing we must earn.


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One major difference we have pertains to the nature of human being. If I understand you rightly you believe that we are one (God) but just have to remember it. In contrast I believe I am the wretched man. Rather than one, I am many. We have the potential for I AM but as of now my self is We Are. From this perspective it is far better for me to begin with admitting my plurality rather than imagining a unity that doesn't exist for me

I can see what you are saying, but for me, it’s all story born of language believed to be real.Reality is real, but the story is a fiction within it, not separate from it...so for human it can look at isness and label it this and that making it appear to have meaning and purpose ....except that this meaning and purpose is a knowledge that is made up out of thin air, this knowledge convinces us that what is made up is actually real, when it’s just fictional story. So nothing is real in the story, as we see things dying and disappearing from our lives which shows us nothing really has any meaning or purpose, and that there’s just an unbounded freedom in every moment and that we can just enjoy the view that is the miraculous mystery of not knowing life living itself....then of course because language evolved, life became a prison for the human mind, but that’s a long story....the internet is full of why earth became a prison planet....that’s why there is a mad urge to unplug oneself from the matrix that has become the human condition...people are beginning to see through the illusion of knowledge.

For me, I don’t know if I am unity or separate....I know nothing except what knowledge dictates, knowledge that has appeared from the same unknown isness. So in essence, it’s all just a story arising and falling away in the consciousness that is a human.

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You seem to be describing the effects of attachments to the wall in Plato’s cave and I agree. There is no objective human meaning and purpose to life in Plato’s cave other than in the transformation of substances by our bodily processes as with all animal life. It is the objective purpose of animal man on earth.

Ecclesiastes 1 New International Version (NIV)

Everything Is Meaningless
1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

If there is no objective higher meaning for natural man on earth, is it the same for conscious Man or the result of rebirth? I would say no. I’ve learned that the objective purpose for Man providing meaning is the conscious ability to receive from above and give to below. Where natural man functions on one level of reality, conscious man connects levels of reality.

Of course this is insulting. The implication is that all our lofty opinions of ourselves are really meaningless. All we are objectively doing is reacting to worldly and universal influences while transforming substances by our bodily processes as do all other animals. Sheesh! Talk about an insult. No wonder the idea is hated.

The question becomes if a person should unplug themselves from the matrix and become nothing or to become their evolutionary purpose and become conscious beings connecting levels of reality in accordance with universal purpose?.

Higher values can be the norm for conscious Man. You can see how far we are from conscious Man.

Science Fan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:59 pm Nick A: There you go again, writing a comment that means nothing absent your bigotry to sustain it. I'll stick to factual reality.

It isn't up to me to factually prove you are the wretched man. You have to make the necessary efforts to experience the human condition as it exists in you. You don't want to so why blame me?

God depends on Man to seek an enlightened god; somewhat circular but god has always been a circle leading back to its point of origin; us!

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 pm God depends on Man to seek an enlightened god; somewhat circular but god has always been a circle leading back to its point of origin; us!

Consider the enormity of our great universe. Our earth within it is a mere speck. Why would our Source need Man? If the earth were destroyed by an asteroid and Man on earth were no more, do you really think it would matter to the source of our existence beyond the limitations of time and space? Conscious humanity can serve a universal purpose but if we no longer exist, the universe will go on functioning as if nothing happened. The universe isn't here to serve Man. Man serves the living machine called universe.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:22 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 pm God depends on Man to seek an enlightened god; somewhat circular but god has always been a circle leading back to its point of origin; us!

Consider the enormity of our great universe. Our earth within it is a mere speck. Why would our Source need Man? If the earth were destroyed by an asteroid and Man on earth were no more, do you really think it would matter to the source of our existence beyond the limitations of time and space? Conscious humanity can serve a universal purpose but if we no longer exist, the universe will go on functioning as if nothing happened. The universe isn't here to serve Man. Man serves the living machine called universe.

Nothing to do with who serves who or what! God is merely a segregation of our desires into a useful higher entity to enhance his will be it for wealth, power, morality or any purpose he finds useful. At least that much proof is contained in the annals of history; your own proprietary use of god proclaims precisely that; an entity designed as an endorsement for your personal views...nothing more than that!

Also, if our existence doesn't matter to your Source why even bother having one; seems superfluous to me

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:36 pm

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:22 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:46 pm God depends on Man to seek an enlightened god; somewhat circular but god has always been a circle leading back to its point of origin; us!

Consider the enormity of our great universe. Our earth within it is a mere speck. Why would our Source need Man? If the earth were destroyed by an asteroid and Man on earth were no more, do you really think it would matter to the source of our existence beyond the limitations of time and space? Conscious humanity can serve a universal purpose but if we no longer exist, the universe will go on functioning as if nothing happened. The universe isn't here to serve Man. Man serves the living machine called universe.

Nothing to do with who serves who or what! God is merely a segregation of our desires into a useful higher entity to enhance his will be it for wealth, power, morality or any purpose he finds useful. At least that much proof is contained in the annals of history; your own proprietary use of god proclaims precisely that; an entity designed as an endorsement for your personal views...nothing more than that!

Also, if our existence doesn't matter to your Source why even bother having one; seems superfluous to me

I don’t know what sort of weird God you are into. Why would a supreme being want with wealth and power etc. I don’t see the sense of it.

Also, if our existence doesn't matter to your Source why even bother having one; seems superfluous to me.

I’m the type of person who needs to appreciate the logic of the universe in order to take the idea of God or the Good as Plato described seriously. Appreciating the process of involution within creation as an expression of the Absolute beyond the limits of creation makes the universe comprehensible for me as a skeleton of being. I am invited to fill in this skeleton with observations which verify it. Conscious humanity serves a purpose for the living machine called universe. Isn’t that sufficient? The universe is the body of God and we serve a purpose within the body. Body cells serve a person for your body but the body doesn't die because of the loss of a body cell.

Once a person experiences that they are dual in nature with both higher and lower parts, it becomes clear that consciously evolving towards the source our higher parts attract us to requires the awareness of our source and the help of higher consciousness and grace which permeates our universe.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:20 pm You seem to be describing the effects of attachments to the wall in Plato’s cave and I agree. There is no objective human meaning and purpose to life in Plato’s cave other than in the transformation of substances by our bodily processes as with all animal life. It is the objective purpose of animal man on earth.

The way I've been seeing things lately Nick is thus..

Knowledge is unique to human consciousness through the human mind body mechanism. Nothing was known (for man) until man started using conceptual language. (although life obviously is already in full flow including the process of knowing how to function prior to mans awareness of that functioning)

So as a human being, I know I am not the one living my life, I know that, this is obvious. I know there is something way way beyond my comprehension that is living my life, and what ever it is, it is NOT ME.. and that something is the same something that is living every other thing on earth, including beating the heart, breathing the breath and growing the grass. It's all the same something doing all.

What I DO NOT know is WHAT that something IS... however, there is also language included in the dynamic of life, and that dynamic can give that unknown something a name, so using language I can call that something God...or I can call it something else, whatever...BUT I have no idea what that God is. Just that it is.

The rest of human life is story that the human made up. Now obviously because we are not the ones living our lives, the same something that is living our lives is the same something that is making up these words appearing as knowledge.

But I have no way of knowing what that something is, except that I am an expression of it. So what ever it is, it too can't know what is going to happen next, it can only know when it is happening in the moment it is happening as it is experiencing itself as evident.

All that can be known is what is happening in the immediate moment..nothing can be known of the future which would be pure conjecture and speculation. So for humans their life seems to live from the memory of what has already come and gone, they live from memory which is dead, and they cling to those dead energies as if they were happening right now.

Also, we are not even born into a world of our own unique choosing, we are born into a world of other peoples ideas, and we inherit those ideas and take them on as our own, believing that that's just the way of things without ever questioning it...until we stop and look deeper into things, that's when we realise that our whole human reality is built upon a fiction.

That's why I brought up the idea of unplugging from the matrix. We can get back into the natural flow of life living itself and just allow ourselves to go with that flow without resistance where ever that flow want's to take us, and trusting only in that intelligence...or we can live in a life that has been programmed for us by other people based on the fiction that is language, aka knowledge.

The flip side is living a life of not-knowing innocence the way the rest of nature does. But at the same time, knowing there is something working very intelligently and efficiently in every moment of life and that the one doing this is not dependent on human knowledge or thought in order to function.

I personally trust in that one intelligence ONLY...the one living as and through me....it's an energy expression that has been assigned to this particular character.

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Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 am Appreciating the process of involution within creation as an expression of the Absolute beyond the limits of creation makes the universe comprehensible for me as a skeleton of being. I am invited to fill in this skeleton with observations which verify it. Conscious humanity serves a purpose for the living machine called universe. Isn’t that sufficient? The universe is the body of God and we serve a purpose within the body. Body cells serve a person for your body but the body doesn't die because of the loss of a body cell.

...so as already mentioned, it's your own proprietary view; "involution" being definitely the correct term for it. Why not just say "that's what I believe". There is also no purpose you can serve unless you know what that purpose is. There are no messages from the universe informing us of one except those we imagine to augment our importance. A generic purpose, which is what you mention, serves no purpose.

DaM

So as a human being, I know I am not the one living my life, I know that, this is obvious. I know there is something way way beyond my comprehension that is living my life, and what ever it is, it is NOT ME.. and that something is the same something that is living every other thing on earth, including beating the heart, breathing the breath and growing the grass. It's all the same something doing all.

Socrates — 'Give me beauty in the inward soul; may the outward and the inward man be at one.

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We have different perspectives. You assert that your life is lived from above and I believe my life is lived from below. Living from above is a conscious potential but as we are, we are lived from below.

Our personalities or the outer man is created in life. It consists of mechanical reactions that live our life for us. A conscious source isn’t necessary for mechanical reactions of the animal world. Only universal laws are necessary. That is why the outer and inner man are not one.

I can have the experience that I am being observed by higher consciousness but this isn’t living my life. My personality is living my life. The problem is that our personality should be a tool of the inner man. The human condition has made it so that our personality starves out the inner man depriving it of its connection with higher consciousness. Rather than we driving a car, the car is driving us.

I personally trust in that one intelligence ONLY...the one living as and through me....it's an energy expression that has been assigned to this particular character.

I don’t trust my personality founded upon imagination and following nature’s laws responsible for everything turning in circles. That is just life in Plato’s cave for me.

“Never forget," a Stranger said to me once in the lobby of the Midland Hotel in Manchester, "that only dead fish swim with the stream.”
― Malcolm Muggeridge, The Very Best of Malcolm Muggeridge

I’ve always felt like a salmon swimming up stream. Even though the majority around me were going with the flow and expressing appropriate rebellion for the day, I was going in a different direction in opposition to the flow. You can see why I am so wary of this idea of going with the flow since I’ve learned by experience that going with the flow in the modern age really is following self deception.

Is there a way that a person can be master of their personality and as Paul said, to be all things to all people, or must we become slaves to our personality created by the Great Beast? Of course it is possible for some individuals. I doubt it on a large scale. Awakening is the most repulsive thing for the dominant secular mind created by the Beast content to live in one level of reality as if in a cave. So in short, we’re stuck. I’ll have to be content with being like a salmon and swimming up stream in the line of being in quest of returning to my origin.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:25 am

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 am Appreciating the process of involution within creation as an expression of the Absolute beyond the limits of creation makes the universe comprehensible for me as a skeleton of being. I am invited to fill in this skeleton with observations which verify it. Conscious humanity serves a purpose for the living machine called universe. Isn’t that sufficient? The universe is the body of God and we serve a purpose within the body. Body cells serve a person for your body but the body doesn't die because of the loss of a body cell.

...so as already mentioned, it's your own proprietary view; "involution" being definitely the correct term for it. Why not just say "that's what I believe". There is also no purpose you can serve unless you know what that purpose is. There are no messages from the universe informing us of one except those we imagine to augment our importance. A generic purpose, which is what you mention, serves no purpose.

You seem to be concerned with what to do. The universe will tell us what to do if real. But the problem isn't what to do but how "to be."

We know what to do as animal man serving its purpose. We know how to eat, drink, breath, etc. We are not told what to do since what we do reflects what we objectively are. How to be requires striving to become conscious so that the higher can give to the lower in ourselves. That is why even modern spiritual practices have exercises such as conscious eating and conscious walking. The idea is to form a conscious connection between the higher and lower within our being. Once we have become ourselves, what to do in accordance with universal purpose becomes obvious

Nick, I don't know what you are saying at the moment, but that's because your experience is not mine and vice versa.

I personally believe that what we are is a universal invisible unified field, although this is just another theory.

But, I AM, we are all that field aka spirit, and it is spirit expressing and experiencing what it like to have a body with emotions and feelings and experiences which is impossible without the body, spirit without the body is just pure energy potential, latent and unknown to itself, but already fully coded to experience everything that can possibly be experienced. And that it is through the body mind mechanism which decodes what is already in the spirit realm into actuality...and the way it does experience itself is as and through the body mind mechanism which is like a TV set broadcasting the show according to the character avatar it is playing, in my case it is as and through the DAM show experience.

So what we are is immortal spirits that are all unique parts of the unified field vibrating at different frequencies according to what station is playing, and each body, tv set is tuned into it's own unique station according to it's vibration and frequency.

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For me right now, I cannot resonate with anything that is of a beastly type because that's not what my heart is reading into, my reality, my feelings abhor anything that is beastly or evil or not of beauty and love. That is my frequency, the broadcast that is appearing as the DAM show..so to speak.

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Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:50 pm Nick, I don't know what you are saying at the moment, but that's because your experience is not mine and vice versa.

I personally believe that what we are is a universal invisible unified field, although this is just another theory.

But, I AM, we are all that field aka spirit, and it is spirit expressing and experiencing what it like to have a body with emotions and feelings and experiences which is impossible without the body, spirit without the body is just pure energy potential, latent and unknown to itself, but already fully coded to experience everything that can possibly be experienced. And that it is through the body mind mechanism which decodes what is already in the spirit realm into actuality...and the way it does experience itself is as and through the body mind mechanism which is like a TV set broadcasting the show according to the character avatar it is playing, in my case it is as and through the DAM show experience.

So what we are is immortal spirits that are all unique parts of the unified field vibrating at different frequencies according to what station is playing, and each body, tv set is tuned into it's own unique station according to it's vibration and frequency.

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For me right now, I cannot resonate with anything that is of a beastly type because that's not what my heart is reading into, my reality, my feelings abhor anything that is beastly or evil or not of beauty and love. That is my frequency, the broadcast that is appearing as the DAM show..so to speak.

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The seed of God is in us. Given an intelligent and hard-working farmer, it will thrive and grow up to God, whose seed it is; and accordingly its fruits will be God-nature. Pear seeds grow into pear trees, nut seeds into nut trees, and God-seed into God. ~ Meister Eckhart

Isn’t it good to know that we can have differing perspectives without cursing each other out. I can understand why you believe as you do but it doesn’t answer my questions as to universal meaning and purpose and Man’s purpose within it. Coming to understand the relationship between involution and evolution in the context of the great chain of being and why Man’s being is dual natured has provided a path capable of answering my questions.

For example, appreciating Man’s dual nature makes it clear what it means to receive from above and give to below in order to awaken our essence to feel higher values. In respect to this thread, losing the natural connection with our higher parts creates dominant secular values in compensation and destruction of the seed of the soul and its potential to reconcile our dual nature from a higher perspective rather than refusing to recognize our lower nature.

Even though we disagree I respect your passion in pursuit of meaning.

Nick_A wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:42 pm Once we have become ourselves, what to do in accordance with universal purpose becomes obvious

You'll wait forever for that to happen; when we flame-out as a species we still won't know because there is nothing to know. All our professed wisdom from whatever source is based on our myths which includes those espoused by everyone you incessantly quote.

You imply that once we know ourselves enough to become ourselves the universe will respond with an acknowledgement and the 3rd eye, or philosophically stated, the ontological I gets revealed to make Purpose obvious in a universe that doesn't seem to have any...which all reeks of abject mysticism. If consciousness can't get what it wants, it applies its own incantations to accomplish it.

Purpose, which you constantly emphasize according to some cosmic perspective, can be derived, (not messaged universally), in many ways including the secular which you describe as "The Great Beast". In fact, that connotation best suits nature at large in which ONLY process rules as manifested by its total apathy and yet we're ALL derivatives of.

We warm ourselves at the hearth of our own ideals because we can and because we can, we need to. Purpose prescribes purely on that inflection and while consciousness is temporarily satisfied with those insights, it never ceases yearning to create more according to its nature.

To think in a manner attempting to rinse out a few drops of enlightenment within a reality thoroughly barren of anything personal requires an open mind which you are completely exempt of with almost zero effect on others. What you attempt to teach cannot be taught by any single impervious closed creed...such as yours.