Philosophy Now Forum

Seleucus wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You come across as full of crap.

I need respect. I'm not going to reply to someone who quotes eighteen-hundred words of text and makes an insulting one-liner.

In answer to what I believe you might be asking about, and I won't bother to reply in the future to someone who is so rude and lazy, it would be better to have peace keepers and other experts, for example layers, professors, doctors, police trainers, and so on go to, say Indonesia, to protect gay Muslims from persecution, than it would be to accept 10 million gay Indonesian Muslims as refugee claimants to the UK. Persecution of homosexuals in Indonesia is obviously not a consequence of colonial aggression, racism, White privilege and so on which indeed were elements of the colonial period. The guilty reluctance Western people have to get involved in improving the 3rd world after their withdrawal from colonization is perhaps understandable but actually misguided as the developing world is seriously in need of leadership and assistance.

In case you hadn't noticed, 'Western' countries are heavily involved in 'improving' muslim countries. Just look at how those countries have improved in the last couple of decades. All those cleansing bombs and drones. I'm sure gay people there are much better off too.

Seleucus wrote:it would be better to have peace keepers and other experts, for example layers, professors, doctors, police trainers, and so on go to and so on go to, say Indonesia, to protect gay Muslims

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:'Western' countries are heavily involved in 'improving' muslim countries. Just look at how those countries have improved in the last couple of decades. All those cleansing bombs and drones.

I must have failed to communicate clearly. I've used bold to highlight it. I imagine what I am suggesting is not a very familiar idea. The best example in recent times might be American involvement in the Philippines after the Philippine–American War which include a contingent of 10,000 teachers. That is very different than current Western policy in Iraq or Afghanistan that avoids setting foot on the ground.

By the way, why is Western put in quotation marks?

Seleucus wrote:

Seleucus wrote:it would be better to have peace keepers and other experts, for example layers, professors, doctors, police trainers, and so on go to and so on go to, say Indonesia, to protect gay Muslims

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:'Western' countries are heavily involved in 'improving' muslim countries. Just look at how those countries have improved in the last couple of decades. All those cleansing bombs and drones.

I must have failed to communicate clearly. I've used bold to highlight it. I imagine what I am suggesting is not a very familiar idea. The best example in recent times might be American involvement in the Philippines after the Philippine–American War which include a contingent of 10,000 teachers. That is very different than current Western policy in Iraq or Afghanistan that avoids setting foot on the ground.

By the way, why is Western put in quotation marks?

You don't have your own doctors and teachers?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You don't have your own doctors and teachers?

Canada: 2.1 per 1,000

Indonesia: 0.13 per 1,000 people

Basically Canada has 2000% more doctors, not to mention budget and quality.

All you need is love! Did you know that Seleucus was the only one of Alexander's generals who stayed with his Asiatic wife after Alexander's death? Her name was Apama. (All Alexander's generals were compelled to take a Persian wife). The Seleucids achieved a relatively successful fusion of Eastern and Western culture. Meanwhile, in Ptolemaic Egypt, it was common for sisters and brothers to marry, and Egypt was plagued by centuries of race wars. What is the percent ratio difference between the number of Americans who have married Filipinas, and the number of Americans who marry Iraqi women? What about holiday statistics? How about migration? How about employment? I can understand why Trump wants to keep Iraqi Muslims out of America of course, but the more important issue, and it is dangerous, (the fatality rate for the contingent of 10,000 teachers who went to the Philippines was almost as high as it was among the soldiers) is Americans living and working in Iraq, and not on base or in compounds, but doing business together, getting wed, building colleges and so on.

Rather than I going to the West, it should be you offering to come here.

Seleucus wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You don't have your own doctors and teachers?

Canada: 2.1 per 1,000

Indonesia: 0.13 per 1,000 people

Basically Canada has 2000% more doctors, not to mention budget and quality.

All you need is love! Did you know that Seleucus was the only one of Alexander's generals who stayed with his Asiatic wife after Alexander's death? Her name was Apama. (All Alexander's generals were compelled to take a Persian wife). The Seleucids achieved a relatively successful fusion of Eastern and Western culture. Meanwhile, in Ptolemaic Egypt, it was common for sisters and brothers to marry, and Egypt was plagued by centuries of race wars. What is the percent ratio difference between the number of Americans who have married Filipinas, and the number of Americans who marry Iraqi women? What about holiday statistics? How about migration? How about employment? I can understand why Trump wants to keep Iraqi Muslims out of America of course, but the more important issue, and it is dangerous, (the fatality rate for the contingent of 10,000 teachers who went to the Philippines was almost as high as it was among the soldiers) is Americans living and working in Iraq, and not on base or in compounds, but doing business together, getting wed, building colleges and so on.

Rather than I going to the West, it should be you offering to come here.

Are you sure you want them? I didn't suggest you should leave. The 'West' has its own problems.

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:It may well be that in an Islamic country your hatred of the adhan is outnumbered by those that love the sound of it or need it, if only to get to prayer on time.

The amazingly tolerant Israelis are finally moving to ban this noise after sixty years of putting up with it.

Not that I have anything against Israelis, I wouldn't describe them as 'amazingly tolerant'.

You've pretty much answered your question here: No, 'you shouldn't discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if you live in a country where atheism is illegal'. You should move to Israel.

Seleucus wrote:..,,,But what I've found is the only people who do not agree that it is obnoxious have big beards.

I can confirm vegitariantaxidermy's earlier observation as to how "you come across".

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:Would you care to put a number to how many of the 53 countries that have a Muslim population of 50+% are calling for a Caliphate?

What we do have good research data on is the number of Muslims in First World countries like the UK and Canada who support Sharia law, who believe suicide bombing is justified, or who oppose homosexual rights. We also have reasonable election data from come Muslim countries on the number of voters who supported Islamist candidates (where there were other options). In both cases, numbers do go over fifty percent.

Who's 'we' and where is this so called research?

I live in the UK amongst Muslims, and not once have I heard of a call for Caliphate or imposition of Islam on this country, from the community. They know how ridiculous it would sound given that they have come here to get away from a more controlling state. The few, and I mean the VERY few reports one hears here, of 'Khalifa' come through the tabloid press given to promoting more right wing ideals, in their need to 'highlight' the problem of immigration.

I know about Islam and I know about Muslims here, as much as I know a crock of sh*t when it's sitting in front of me. If you are going to make definite claims, support it with unbiased research.

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:In Indonesia, an Islamic country with the world's largest Muslim population, it's been banned by law. So again, FGM reflects cultural practise more than religion, as far as I'm concerned.

It is estimated FGM has been done to as many as 50% of girls in Indonesia, in some regions such as Central Java, with its strong Salafist influence, nearly all. It was banned again in 2014 after being re-legalized in 2010, after it was banned it the first time in 2006. You need to add some terms to your search such as "female genital mutilation Jakarta post 2016" or "2017" to get a better picture. Seeing as Islamism is rapidly on the rise in Indonesia, you may know of recent electoral and judicial developments, this situation is likely to get worse.

Well, we've already said the Wahabs/Salafists don't have a monopoly on Islam. No more then the Shi'tes who flagellate themselves during Mohorram (the anniversary of the death of Ali). That doesn't make flagellation Islamic. It's a CULTURAL practise amongst Shi'ites.

All you have described to me is the self determination of Indonesian Muslims, who put democratically elected leaders in place to make these dumb decisions. We do that here in the UK, too. And guess what?!! You can't blame Islam for that either!

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:...as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.

Thankful Trump has started prosecuting Muslim doctors who do this to little girls.

And this is the most intelligent thing you can say on this subject?!!

Seleucus wrote:Since I believe from what you said that we agree that FGM is terrible, no need to push this point further.

Agreed. I'd hate for you to bring uo Trump again.

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:Would you be surprised to know I have.

What I have observed is the butchery is cruel, and also very awful is the the treatment of animals leading up to Eid al-Adha. I don't identify as Christian, but at least their second biggest holiday has a nice symbolic treasure hunt of chocolate eggs for children; but with Muslims, it is slitting animals' throats -- as a symbol of God's relationship to humans. That's sacrifice. Sacrifice is different from slaughter.

Have you just said Christians are better than Muslims because their holidays involve chocolate eggs instead of sacrifice?!! The capitalist commercialisation, in this case, of a Christian holiday, that you have just so casually pointed out, is part of a much bigger problem as to what is destroying, not just the stability of the Muslim world, but the planet itself, you moron.

Seleucus wrote:Homosexuality is punishable in nearly all Muslim countries. Even in the supposedly tolerant ones which are now sliding rapidly towards Islamism it is stigmatized and persecuted. Britain, or Canada, for example simply cannot welcome all gay Muslims as refugees. The number of gay Muslims is greater than the population of these countries. It is necessary for the West to intervene in foreign countries.

Your naivety is astounding! You would swap one evil for another. Western intervention ALWAYS comes at a price. Change should come from within, so that you don't owe any other nation, a thing. I know how bad it must be in some countries but I also know that making deals with the West can come at an enormous cost.

Seleucus wrote:The West needs to pressure, fund institutions (such as philosophy faculties) and even put men and women on the ground to protect people living there. That would be humanitarian.

You think the West is humanitarian?

We are to the extent we can put our hands in our pockets and agree to a monthly subscription of a note, of low denomination, to Save the Children, but if our "boots" hit "your ground", it's because we want something from you: resources, places to place our missiles (putting you in the firing line of OUR enemies), idiots to buy the crap we might have over-produced and medicines, we overcharge for, that may not even be that good for you...

The 'West' doesn't care about anyone else unless they serve the Western agenda. Wake up, sleepy head.

Seleucus wrote:At the end of the colonial period Western people lost their inspiration to improve the countries which are by comparison backwards, but it is as important now as it was a century ago to show leadership and assist development. Maybe more so as the hope the 3rd World had that the end of colonialism would usher in an era of freedom and development fades and the realities of stagnation set in and reactionary forces pull the 3rd World rapidly backwards.

There was no agenda to improve anything. It was all acquisition. The by product was progress, which improved things.

You still want to sell your soul to the 'West'?

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... There are those on here who would like to see an end to free speech. ...

And then there's the irony that 'PC' would be anathema to the societies we're talking about whereas abusive speech about their minorities very politically correct.

Arising_uk wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... There are those on here who would like to see an end to free speech. ...

And then there's the irony that 'PC' would be anathema to the societies we're talking about whereas abusive speech about their minorities very politically correct.

You seem to be missing some parts of speech. I don't understand what you are saying.

Not surprised but could you say what it is you don't understand about what I said?

Although it could be my fault with my assumption that your aside was to do with those you consider to be supporters of PC here and therefore against free-speech, was I wrong?

ForCruxSake wrote:where is this so called research?

Try google search term: "muslim attitude survey pdf".

ForCruxSake wrote:

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:...as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.

Thankfully Trump has started prosecuting Muslim doctors who do this to little girls.

And this is the most intelligent thing you can say on this subject?!!

I strongly support prosecution of doctors who perform FGM.

ForCruxSake wrote:Have you just said Christians are better than Muslims because their holidays involve chocolate eggs instead of sacrifice?!!

Yes.

The capitalist commercialisation, in this case, of a Christian holiday,

That sounds really bad... people giving gifts to each other. By contrast the Muslim high holiday involves a month of not eating properly and sleep deprivation. I'd prefer gifts. I agree with the Buddha that asceticism and fasting is futile, this is also the position of modern spiritual sciences such as Neo-Advaita.

is part of a much bigger problem as to what is destroying, not just the stability of the Muslim world, but the planet itself, you moron.

I agree that capitalism can be a very destructive force. Since I've already had to ask once in this discussion to be treated with respect, I'm not asking a second time. End of conversation --

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:Have you just said Christians are better than Muslims because their holidays involve chocolate eggs instead of sacrifice?!!

Yes.

And you don't see how trivial that might appear?

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote:The capitalist commercialisation, in this case, of a Christian holiday,

That sounds really bad... people giving gifts to each other.

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Muslims give gifts of money at Eid, to the individuals in their family, rather than getting conned into buying massed produced gifts for them.

You compare chocolate egg giving, as a lovely practise, to horror of the ritual slaughter of an animal, which is meant to be symbolic of the sacrifices people are required to make in life. The meat slaughtered at Eid, should be shared with the community, rather than just be consumed by the family purchasing it, so that all get fed. That's how I witnessed it in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. It's a truly generous thing to do. Here they only give chocolate eggs to loved ones, not the homeless or needy.

Seleucus wrote:By contrast the Muslim high holiday involves a month of not eating properly and sleep deprivation. I'd prefer gifts. I agree with the Buddha that asceticism and fasting is futile, this is also the position of modern spiritual sciences such as Neo-Advaita.

You think gorging on chocolate eggs is eating properly?

Fasting as it turns is going down quite well in the West. We have the 5:2 diet here, which came about as a result of a doctor examining, and evaluating, the subject of fasting for the 'Horizon' series, a TV programme made by the BBC. It advocates lowering calorific intake for two days of the week, to control weight. Dr Michael Moseley, the investigator and originator of the diet, originally said alternate day fasting would be better for the body but too hard to follow.

There's also a movement of people who stick to eating a daily maximum of 500 - 1000 calories, as a routine, as fasting and low calorific intake has been shown to clear much of their cardiovascular system of cholesterol and turn back the clocks on the efficiency of their bodies, by triggering hormesis, where the lowering of calories imposes a low-intensity biological stress on the body, eliciting a defensive response that may help protect it against the disorders of ageing and reducing DNA damage.

Even the Catholics have Lent, although it's hardly really fasting.

Buddha didn't have the scientific tools to review such topics so it's understandable that he may have got it wrong when it came to fasting. You, however, have Google, which you so often seem to point others toward, so you have no excuse to come up with such archaic 'spiritual' nonsense about fasting,

Sleep deprivation is just something you appear to be making up, in order to further your agenda to malign Islam, as no-one here, in the UK, who fasts during Ramadan is sleep deprived. Again, this might be a cultural thing reflective of the mysterious Muslim country where you reside. Hardly reflective of the religion itself.

Seleucus wrote:

ForCruxSake wrote: ...is part of a much bigger problem as to what is destroying, not just the stability of the Muslim world, but the planet itself, you moron.

I agree that capitalism can be a very destructive force.

And that's all you have to say about the much greater problem being faced by Muslim countries in the world today? You'd rather talk about chocolate eggs and fasting.

I attempted to point out to you that this commercial 'trick' that promotes the sale of eggs, when it has very little to do with Christ's resurrection, is one of many thousands of capitalist 'tricks', that all come together under the umbrella of the capitalist imperialism that is causing the destabilisation of the Muslim world, and the planet's environment in general, and you chose to ignore the point I was making to further criticise Muslims over their fasting and sleeping habits. What will you have me consider next, by way of criticism, their bowel movements?

Seleucus wrote:Since I've already had to ask once in this discussion to be treated with respect, I'm not asking a second time. End of conversation --

I believe you asked that of someone else. I think this is the first time you've levelled it at me.

Maybe you should examine your own ability to talk with respect, when criticising others, like those with beards you maligned earlier. You expect to be treated with respect, when you seem to be showing little to others. That strikes me as a little hypocritical.

But yes, I shouldn't have called you a moron, despite how what you say reflects on you. I apologise.

I suspect this conversation is really over because you have little left to say of any real relevance as to the damage Islam imposes on its believers. I'm good with that.

Arising_uk wrote:Not surprised but could you say what it is you don't understand about what I said?

Although it could be my fault with my assumption that your aside was to do with those you consider to be supporters of PC here and therefore against free-speech, was I wrong?

I thought that was what you meant but it was hard to tell. You shouldn't type so fast.