~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Lacewing »

Bill Wiltrack wrote: Individually, we must look at ourselves, work to sense or perceive our pre-concieved perspective of the world and work to take-in the terrain of this new environment that we are entering into as objectively as possible.
Sure, but...give Trump a chance? FUCK THAT! He continually leaves no doubt about who he is -- and people can see that and respond in whatever way they feel inclined. It doesn't matter how he got where he is NOR how many Americans propelled him there. He is recognized AROUND THE WORLD (and at all levels) as a dangerous psychotic liar by COUNTLESS PEOPLE and to an UNPRECENDENTED degree. You can give him a chance if you want to, but why don't you show support for other people's AWARENESS and CONSISTENCY in opposing something that they see as HORRIFIC AND UNACCEPTABLE? Especially since you once saw it that way too!
Bill Wiltrack wrote:I am extremely hopeful and confident that this new revolution is not only exciting but in the end will be a continued positive effect for humanity in general.
ME TOO! But OPPOSITION is part of revolution, is it not, Bill? And many believe that opposition IS GIVING HIM "his due". I, too, see Trump as a TOOL FOR REVOLUTION, but I see him as a symbol of what many of us don't want to be -- and therefore, this is a catalyst for propelling ourselves BEYOND "that". There are many KINDS of revolution at many levels... yes? I don't see this as just what happens with government -- I see it as evolving who we are.

So, to me, the attitude of "allow Trump to lead", as you say, sounds like shallow and dangerous acquiescence. Maybe someday you'll appreciate that there were people who didn't respond to this OPPORTUNITY that way. 8)
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Terrapin Station »

Lacewing wrote:ME TOO! But OPPOSITION is part of revolution, is it not, Bill? And many believe that opposition IS GIVING HIM "his due". I, too, see Trump as a TOOL FOR REVOLUTION, but I see him as a symbol of what many of us don't want to be -- and therefore, this is a catalyst for propelling ourselves BEYOND "that". There are many KINDS of revolution at many levels... yes? I don't see this as just what happens with government -- I see it as evolving who we are.

So, to me, the attitude of "allow Trump to lead", as you say, sounds like shallow and dangerous acquiescence. Maybe someday you'll appreciate that there were people who didn't respond to this OPPORTUNITY that way. 8)
There's not going to be any revolution. There's simply some people protesting, people who are essentially preaching to the choir, and gradually that will fade away, people will lose interest/get bored with it or something else will divert their attention, etc.

An actual revolution would require force of some sort, but that's only going to get the protestors arrested or possibly worse.

Of course, I'm not at all sympathetic to the protestors in this case. I think the rhetoric on their side is ridiculous and the ignorance and lack of reasoning ability is monumental.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Lacewing »

Terrapin Station wrote:There's simply some people protesting
Do you think that's the only "force" of opposition that is or can be in play? Do you not think that events can shift/expand human awareness in such a way as to bring about change/evolution?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Terrapin Station »

Lacewing wrote:
Terrapin Station wrote:There's simply some people protesting
Do you think that's the only "force" of opposition that is or can be in play? Do you not think that events can shift/expand human awareness in such a way as to bring about change/evolution?
Do I think that's possible in some situations? Sure. Not in this one. As I said, at best, the folks protesting are only preaching to the choir. The effect it seems to be having on a lot of other people is wondering just how we managed to screw up so badly in our rearing of millennials. One aspect of that is that people see it as ridiculously hypocritical after all the pre-election worry about whether Trump's camp would accept the results of the election should he lose.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Lacewing »

Terrapin Station wrote:Do I think that's possible in some situations? Sure. Not in this one.
Hmm... I guess I'm wondering if not THIS ONE, then what else would be more potent and primed?
Terrapin Station wrote:As I said, at best, the folks protesting are only preaching to the choir.
So, I'm not really thinking of the protesters out on the streets. Rather, I'm thinking of the rumblings everywhere else... and the widespread acknowledgement that this could be really, really bad. That sort of shared thinking... and the brainstorming and opposition it could inspire... is what I see as being a "force". I may be wrong... but I really don't see this as some "small thing" that will quiet down and become the new normal... and it seems that a lot of other people have the same impression... to a degree unlike anything we've experienced before.

I'm also thinking that the "kids" on the streets might be fulfilling "their role" in humankind's evolution. What else do they actually have to do with themselves to feel vital? The world isn't promising them much as adults -- and the world (as seen by many) needs to evolve -- so this is their chance to DO SOMETHING toward that goal -- even if it's at great sacrifice. I don't think they're wasting their time, and I do think this sort of unrest makes a statement and bolsters/transforms more than we see on the surface.

Do you think significant change/evolution is needed, and if so, how do you think it would best come about?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Terrapin Station »

Lacewing wrote:the widespread acknowledgement that this could be really, really bad . . . I may be wrong... but I really don't see this as some "small thing" that will quiet down and become the new normal... and it seems that a lot of other people have the same impression... to a degree unlike anything we've experienced before.
We've never before had a generation that needed "trigger warnings" for speech or ideas that they disagree with, a generation that is so fragile when it comes to alternate views and behavior, a generation that would need to have exams made optional because the candidate they were supporting wasn't elected, and so on. The millennials in question would have likely reacted the same way to George W. Bush, (and surely they would have reacted the same way to Reagan even earlier) , but they were too young when the younger Bush was first elected to care about it in the same way then (and of course they weren't born yet when Reagan was elected). The ways millennials react reminds me a bit of how some movies show younger folks reacting in late 17th Century Massachusette re the Salem Witch Trials. It's a bit like mass hysteria at the slightest provocation. It's just that now we're branding people racists, sexists, etc. instead of witches.

So I don't think that this has anything to do with Trump, really. It has to do with the dispositions and beliefs of the millennials in question. A lot of millennials have some serious problems, in my view, although older generations, the generations who raised them and who educated them, are to blame for a lot of it.

And after all, millennials are really the only ones who are worked up re thinking that Trump is a racist, sexist, etc. Most older folks don't care about that (well, and partially because they think the rhetotic of the millennials and the folks force-feeding that crap to the millennials (such as some college professors) is ridiculous). Older folks rather care about their employment situation, their tax burdens, their housing and health care situations, education for their kids, etc. That's how Trump got elected in the first place. People were not confident that Hillary would have a positive impact on those financial and practical issues that impact folks' daily lives.
I don't think they're wasting their time, and I do think this sort of unrest makes a statement and bolsters/transforms more than we see on the surface.
I pretty much always think that protests are a waste of time. I've thought that since I was a kid and people were protesting the Vietnam War. The U.S. didn't exit Vietnam because of the protestors--don't forget that protests about it were going on for years. We exited because the war was no longer beneficial, including no longer financially feasible, to the folks in power at the time.
Do you think significant change/evolution is needed, and if so, how do you think it would best come about?
I'd like to see significant change come about, but what I'd like to see instead of what we have isn't something that anyone else really agrees with me on, lol. I explained a little bit of it in the thread about a "base wage" or whatever it was.

The only way that I think significant change would come about, that an effective revolution would come about, is if most folks didn't have work, homes, health care, etc. That's the stuff that people care about. If they're set on those ends, they're content.
The world isn't promising them much as adults -- and the world (as seen by many) needs to evolve -- so this is their chance to DO SOMETHING toward that goal -- even if it's at great sacrifice.
A big problem there is the employment situation, but a lot of what led to that has been the fact that so much work has been farmed out to other countries. That's part of what Trump campaigned on--he wants to do something about that. All those folks who lost their good-paying jobs in states like Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc. responded to this. They didn't believe that Hillary would try to change their situation. They believe that Trump would try to do this. Whether he'll be able to is another issue, though. It's far more complicated than one person making a decision to change it.
User avatar
Bill Wiltrack
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:52 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.




The concept of traditional work is in a state of transition right now.

Quite frankly jobs, the way we traditionally think of them, are never coming back.

Machines/Robots don't take coffee breaks, work twenty-four hours a day, don't need to be paid a benefits package or a retirement. In fact Robots aren't paid a wage - at all! Robots work faster and more precise than any human could possibly work. Robots & machines will soon be able to do ANYTHING that humans can now do.

If President Donald J Trump is the businessman I think he is - he understands this already.

Donald J Trump graduated from Wharton Business School. Made millions of dollars, created a world-wide known brand - TRUMP.

Steve Bannon graduated from Harvard, was an officer in the US Navy for ten years, grew a successful business in the internet.


There is a-lot going on in the world right now. Trump and Steve Bannon have a vision for America in this quickly developing world. They won the election. Not only did they do that but they brought the entire Republican party with them. So now they are the victors. President Donald J Trump deserves the opportunity to lead. Period.


Both the Democrat and traditional Republican party were perceived to be looking-out for the extremely wealthy or the extremely disenfranchised.

Middle America stood-up and said, I'm hurting too! BECAUSE of the lack of good paying jobs in this digital transition period & it seems no one was speaking-up specifically for the middle-class. They felt they had no voice.

Donald J Trump recognized that AND SPOKE TO THEM.

Spoke to them without a filter.


So that's where we are.




.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Lacewing »

I think we're all playing roles (from perhaps a higher perspective) as humankind rumbles along an apparent evolutionary track... and all the potentials wrestle it out. The millennials may represent a certain mindset/vibration... while old stagnant white men represent another... and so on. :) It's like a big play on a stage... with changing scenes and costumes... and the actors keep swapping in and out... but that makes it no less compelling to participate passionately in.

Protests are as much of a dance as anything else, aren't they? Everyone in Washington is dancing. Everyone in the corporate world is dancing. Every homeless person on the street is dancing. It's all just a BIG DANCE! :) Doesn't matter who or where you are.
Terrapin Station wrote:The only way that I think significant change would come about, that an effective revolution would come about, is if most folks didn't have work, homes, health care, etc.
I'm not so sure that a shift can't happen until then. I think it's more about the mindset of ALL/EACH (which you mentioned re: millennials). Do circumstances shape mindset... does mindset shape circumstances... does it go both ways? In my experience, changing mindset can essentially move mountains... just as mindset can imprison a person in Hell, even when they're not. None of it is solid. So I think there's lots of potential in that to explore.

Are you thinking our world will only change through a disruptive event that wipes the slate clean for us? Does that mean that you think we're just physical blobs of habit and comfort without any capacity for affecting anything beyond what we've currently concocted? :)
Terrapin Station wrote:It's far more complicated than one person making a decision to change it.
I agree. I think there is much more at play here... and this situation is just the "sideshow". The various antics of it keep us distracted... and make us point in one direction or another at "the problem". So what is beyond and outside of the sideshow?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Terrapin Station »

Lacewing wrote:I think we're all playing roles (from perhaps a higher perspective) as humankind rumbles along an apparent evolutionary track... and all the potentials wrestle it out.
Well, but the role of a generation that needs "trigger warnings" is a new one. ;-)
Are you thinking our world will only change through a disruptive event that wipes the slate clean for us?
Any sort of revolution with respect to the U.S. government would require something along the lines of a disaster. Americans are "conservative" in the sense (not the political sense) of prefering that things keep going along as they have been, provided that they're financially comfortable and have all the basics they need. That's one reason it's basically impossible for a third part to have a viable chance in presidential races. We're not about to have a revolution of any sort when someone other than a Democrat or Republican doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the presidency. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the things working against Hillary was simply that she's a woman and we've not had a woman president yet. I'm not saying that people were being sexist, but it might have simply been too much of a change for a lot of folks. They just weren't comfortable with that much change yet. Americans are very conservative/traditional in many ways.
Does that mean that you think we're just physical blobs of habit and comfort without any capacity for affecting anything beyond what we've currently concocted? :)
Again, what's most important to the vast majority of adults is the robustness and stability of their family, career(/economic situation), home, etc. If those things are going okay, folks aren't going to upset the apple cart. A lot of people have had some losses on those ends in recent years. Not enough that there would be any serious push for change, but that's what got Trump elected. He ran on a platform of making those things robust and stable again.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Lacewing »

Terrapin Station wrote:
Lacewing wrote:I think we're all playing roles (from perhaps a higher perspective) as humankind rumbles along an apparent evolutionary track... and all the potentials wrestle it out.
Well, but the role of a generation that needs "trigger warnings" is a new one. ;-)
Fun discussion... thanks. :D
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.






....................................
Mike Pence refuses to call David Duke 'deplorable'






.......................................
Image









............................................................
Image










If Hillary Clinton stated that the Donald J Trump campaign is a campaign that is supported by bigots, racists, misogynists, xenophobes she may be correct.

Those people DO exist in America. They have been marginalized and extricated from political discussion only to be used as a bad example.

That is, until Trump.

Trump brought this growing segment of mostly Caucasian individuals back into the political forefront in a connotative positive way.


These individuals and those Caucasians who have felt more & more dispensable, for a multitude of reasons, throughout the past 40 years came-out en-masse and VOTED.


Often voting for the first time in decades.

America is a melting pot. THE LARGEST and most successful melting pot in history.


K.K.K. members, BLM members and many other growing fringe groups and the individuals that make-up those groups ARE accepted in The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America as long as they do not willingly break the law.


I am proud of that fact.


As someone stated in another thread, Democracy Stands Only if Freedom of Thought is Maintained.








.
Kind of you to post such a flattering photo of Duke. He now looks like something that's been dug out of an Egyptian archaeological site.
User avatar
Bill Wiltrack
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:52 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.




.................................................................
Father time is generally not too kind...to any of us....




.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.




.................................................................
Father time is generally not too kind...to any of us....




.
The reason he looks so dreadful is because he's obviously been fighting 'father time'.
You don't find this creepy? I suppose it's an American thing.

DavidDuke.jpg
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Cassidy.jpg
User avatar
Bill Wiltrack
Posts: 5456
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:52 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: ~ The Width & Breadth of Acceptance Found in America ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.





I imagine you are young...that is god's greatest gift.

It's really a case where, You don't know what you've got till it's gone.

I've been on both sides of the stone. It's humbling.





.
Post Reply