Philosophy Now Forum

Islam can be turned into a murderous ideology, yes.

Religion is a system to give carte-blanche to belief of the worst sort; belief for things that needs no support, reason or evidence. That's why they call it Faith.

It is a system, also that literally 'binds' people to those beliefs. As systems built on smoke and mirrors must, all religions are capable of division, and can comply with sectional interests. Because of this binding process such division leads to sect formation, in which the stronger float to the top of the hierarchy and the rest are bound to follow.

So we should not be surprised when, in the absence of reason and evidence of their beliefs, such sects can form to produce dangerous and dedicated bands of followers.

All religions succumb to this, and radicalisation is just one aspect and depends on point of view. On man's radical heretic is another man's acolyte.

It is because of the nature of religion that ALL sects and systems of belief are as worthwhile as any other as their veracity is equally valid.

Although religious faith is possibly the most easily exploited in this way it is by no means the only spurious "noble cause" capable of brainwashing ignorant young men to throw away their lives for nothing. Over 200,000 Australian young men were either killed or wounded in WW1, most of whom were poorly educated farm boys. Their "noble cause" was the British Empire, a geo-political abstraction which had condemned their very own forefathers to a life of unspeakable degradation, servitude and misery. To a skilled propagandist brainwashing vulnerable young men is as easy as falling off a log.

attofishpi wrote:There is no such thing as radical Islam, it is Islam that is radical. It is an intolerant 'religion', moreover it stands in fact as a political force where a totalitarian state must be implemented governing sharia law.

You are correct. It is a force of conquest by any means necessary.

Richard Pryor said that anytime he heard someone yell Yeeee Hawwww! the hair on the back of his neck would stand up.

Folksy folks are beginning to feel that way about Allahu Akbar!

Not so much, Praise Jesus!

Obvious Leo wrote:Although religious faith is possibly the most easily exploited in this way it is by no means the only spurious "noble cause" capable of brainwashing ignorant young men to throw away their lives for nothing. Over 200,000 Australian young men were either killed or wounded in WW1, most of whom were poorly educated farm boys. Their "noble cause" was the British Empire, a geo-political abstraction which had condemned their very own forefathers to a life of unspeakable degradation, servitude and misery. To a skilled propagandist brainwashing vulnerable young men is as easy as falling off a log.

What you so easily dismiss from your perspective of a 100 years of hindsight as 'spurious' is little different from a host of other socio-politically decided ideologies. "Australia" what ever that is, is just as capable as "British Empire" to send boys to their deaths.
I would class both concepts as no different from religions.
And let's face it. Australis is still condemning thousands of first nation people to bigotry, and prejudice.
You've only to reflect on Bob Evenson, who's blind adherence to the USA, is not enough to separate his own critique of its failed systems. It seems not matter how bad the USA is, nothing could give him the capacity to avoid the religion of blind patriotism.

Youths with bright shiny faces, open clear eyes, smiles … this is the public image of Praise Jesus!

There is something in human nature that wants to take that away, because it is viewed as self-deception.

I think it has something do with the fact that no matter how fast you are driving in the passing lane, someone will be tailgating you. Yutes looking like those public preconceptions, and preaching to those who have experienced different, is an insult to rationality.

Some Christian sects also abhor idolatry as does Islam, but are not so intolerant as to run around in folks’ neighborhoods yelling Yeeeee Hawww! and doing evil things.

Walker wrote:Youths with bright shiny faces, open clear eyes, smiles … this is the public image of Praise Jesus!

There is something in human nature that wants to take that away, because it is viewed as self-deception.

I think it has something do with the fact that no matter how fast you are driving in the passing lane, someone will be tailgating you. Yutes looking like those public preconceptions, and preaching to those who have experienced different, is an insult to rationality.

Some Christian sects also abhor idolatry as does Islam, but are not so intolerant as to run around in folks’ neighborhoods yelling Yeeeee Hawww! and doing evil things.

Are you sure?

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Walker wrote:Youths with bright shiny faces, open clear eyes, smiles … this is the public image of Praise Jesus!

There is something in human nature that wants to take that away, because it is viewed as self-deception.

I think it has something do with the fact that no matter how fast you are driving in the passing lane, someone will be tailgating you. Yutes looking like those public preconceptions, and preaching to those who have experienced different, is an insult to rationality.

Some Christian sects also abhor idolatry as does Islam, but are not so intolerant as to run around in folks’ neighborhoods yelling Yeeeee Hawww! and doing evil things.

Are you sure?

Billy Jack says different, Hobbesy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks2SXmI4Njc

attofishpi wrote: You know i know you are deluded as all atheists unfortunately are. ...

I know you think this but I also know that you hear a voice in your head that you think you know is an external being and I think but am unsure that you also think 'God' talks to you.

Where have i promoted hatred in contrast you exemplify a clear hatred of theists, (even though i am not one) as per your statement that you want to kill us!

What's this 'us' if you are not a theist? Make your mind up.

You can dress it up all you like but post promotes the fear of the alien within our midst and that behavior promotes hatred. What happened to love thy neighbour?

Anyone that opens debate about Islam is tarnished a 'hater' a 'racist' (lol) a 'bigot' by short sighted morons like you.

You are the short - sighted one as 'racist' is an incorrect term to use here and I did not use it. Bigot seems apt and the reason why is you are not opening up a debate as if you were you'd have asked "Is it possible for Islam to co-exist with other religions?', 'Is it possible for other religions to live within Islam?', etc. Instead you've already decided and in that decision have decided that not only is it not possible but have made the blanket statement that ALL of Islam is radical. You also countetposed Christianity as an exemplar of good behaviour. Now I pointed out to you that historically and currently what you say is false upon both issues but I also agreed that it may well be the case that Islam may be become a threatening force to my nation but, and this was my main point, your 'debate" is exactly what is not needed as it tries to tar all the moderate Muslims in my country with the same brush as the fundamentalists and this is playing into their hands as this is exactly the response they want from you. You also promoted a bunch of inflammatory myths about Muslims in my country which clearly shows your agenda.Not least because if you did believe them then the solution is clear, have more babies. The fact that you ignore all of this proves my point about your 'debate' and your thoughts I think.

Conquest and jihid are within the tenets of Islam.

Evangelism is within the tenets of Christianity.

Christians who kill in the name of Jesus are outside the tenets Christianity.

Muslims who kill in the name of Allah are not outside the tenets of Islam.

I recommend reading: How Civilizations Die (And Why Islam Is Dying Too) by David Goldman.

attofishpi wrote: You know i know you are deluded as all atheists unfortunately are. ....

Atheism cannot be a delusion because it is contentless.

Walker wrote:Conquest and jihid are within the tenets of Islam.

Evangelism is within the tenets of Christianity.

Christians who kill in the name of Jesus are outside the tenets Christianity.

Muslims who kill in the name of Allah are not outside the tenets of Islam.

I recommend reading: How Civilizations Die (And Why Islam Is Dying Too) by David Goldman.

Prove it!

And how do you account for all the wars committed by Christians in the name of god, from the Crusades through to the First World War?

In a religion any moron can state what the tenets are, because it is all make-believe.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:What you so easily dismiss from your perspective of a 100 years of hindsight as 'spurious' is little different from a host of other socio-politically decided ideologies.

I didn't claim that it was. I used the WWI example because there was an intense and highly successful recruitment campaign conducted in this country which had the notion of Empire as its underpinning ideology. Most historians agree that this was the illusion behind the reality and that the real truth was that the volunteers were just bored young blokes getting heartily sick of walking behind the arse-end of a horse wrestling with a stump-jump plough. The current recruits to ISIS are from the same sort of limited educational background and the same scenario has merely been projected forward a century to reflect a changing world. If it wasn't ISIS they'd probably join an inner-urban street gang or find some other way to vent their spleen against a world from which they feel disenfranchised.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:I would class both concepts as no different from religions.

So would I. In fact some of the bonding rituals of groups such as bikie gangs are indistinguishable from religiously motivated ceremony.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:And let's face it. Australis is still condemning thousands of first nation people to bigotry, and prejudice.

Whilst I don't deny that this is true I do deny that this is still being done on ideological grounds, as it once was. The appalling plight of much of our indigenous population has been well documented and reflects poorly on us as a society but the will to right historical wrongs is both genuine and widespread in the wider Australian community. The problem is that nobody really seems to know how to go about it. New Zealand has been far more successful in this respect but the cultural realities of the respective indigenous populations are not comparable.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:You've only to reflect on Bob Evenson, who's blind adherence to the USA, is not enough to separate his own critique of its failed systems.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".....Samuel Johnson

Obvious Leo wrote: Whilst I don't deny that this is true I do deny that this is still being done on ideological grounds, as it once was. The appalling plight of much of our indigenous population has been well documented and reflects poorly on us as a society but the will to right historical wrongs is both genuine and widespread in the wider Australian community. The problem is that nobody really seems to know how to go about it. New Zealand has been far more successful in this respect but the cultural realities of the respective indigenous populations are not comparable.

It still is committed on ideological grounds. It is just that they are more subtle. What was once explicit is now in the realm of the unknown knows.
I also think you might be over simplifying the recruitment motives of members of the British Empire armed forces, which was drawn from every class, job, profession, right across the empire. Minds forged by a school system which saw the march of the white man bringing Xian values for the benefits all all subject and less well endowed races across the globe.

Christians who kill in the name of Jesus are outside the tenets Christianity.

Not according to the popes they weren't. Not according to the chaplains who still bless our soldiers today they aren't. Although I take the nuance about killing in the name of Jesus but note themuch bigger proscription he made to not kill at all.

There are many mullahs who disagree with your blanket description that just to kill in the name of Islam is Islamic. Unfortunately it's in none of the vested interests on all sides to promote their views. How have we got to ISIS? Pretty much the last few decades of American political games in the Middle East, starting with the Soviets and Afghanistan.