Anthropic Principle

[Necromancer]

But... but science is for everyone! Phil X, you are always welcome!

I'm old fashioned, 3 dimensions of space and one dimension of time = 4 dimensions of reality!

Necro

[Obvious Leo]

I'm old fashioned, 3 dimensions of space and one dimension of time = 4 dimensions of reality!

This is not what is claimed in spacetime physics, although it is often popularly represented in this way. The Minkowski spacetime unambiguously represents time as a subordinate spatial dimension which means that the block universe paradigm effectively spatialises time out of existence. Unfortunately this has created some serious headaches for the geeks because if time is illusory then so must gravity be illusory because GR shows that these are two different ways of representing the same phenomenon. That's what all the fuss in physics is about because SR and GR cannot possibly both be right.

[Philosophy Explorer]

What you said here can be used as an argument for the multiverse which I don't think you'll ever believe in.

So usually your post are just a bit mad. This one is barking.

So Hobbes, what's your explanation for the earth events happening here instead of elsewhere in our universe (to the best of our knowledge?) How could life arise on our planet?

100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000 x the average number of earth type planets per system; like I said.

Have plants and animals started at the same time
(the odds against this happening is astronomically high) as they're mutually dependent for their oxygen and CO2?

This shows a woeful ignorance of evolution. The first living things do not comply with either 'plant' or 'animal'. Primitive bacteria need only the raw material and energy; subsequent bacteria exploited the by products of those primary producers and so on.

How did the human brain evolve - what random event led to the development of the human brain which occurred first before there was ever language development

Langauge pre-dates the evolution of humans. Look, if you are a god botherer just fucking say so and we can all go home and leave you to your confusion; until then try reading a fucking book.

e.g.? Are you going to tell me that evolution knew there was going to be a need for humans to communicate with one another vocally or that it would be an advantage? How did evolution arrange for this involved process to happen which the scientists still don't know (although they come up with unproven theories?) And the best you can come up with is "The dice just happened to fall here." It seems the dice not only came up with one thing, but a whole series of events, each of which the odds against the event occurring are astronomically high, but for which the odds are higher still against (I listed just two examples).

PhilX

Are you going to tell me that we've waited billions of years for humans to come along , yet it was all designed for us in the first place?? You might want to get a life with that book on basic evolution that you need to buy.

HC said:

"100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000 x the average number of earth type planets per system; like I said."

And how many of these have life on them?

"Primitive bacteria need only the raw material and energy; subsequent bacteria exploited the by products of those primary producers and so on."

Bacteria need oxygen to survive. If they preceded plants, then where did they get their oxygen? (btw I know about anerobic bacteria which I don't think is what you're talking about).

PhilX

[Philosophy Explorer]

So I'm still waiting for your proof there is no real space.

It was proven by Michelson and Morley and then subsequently confirmed by Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen. Since physics is clearly not your bag, Phil, I'd suggest you steer clear of the subject. It seems evolution is not your gig either because biologists make no metaphysical distinction between "life" and "non-life" in the way that you seem to be doing. Both are just atoms configured in a particular way and "non-living" molecules evolve from the simple to the complex in exactly the same way as "living" ones do, namely by adaptation and selection. This even happens in interplanetary clouds of gas and dust so you might need to rethink your definition of life. Life is not a property of the atoms which encode for it.

The MM experiment only proved there is no ether/aether filling space, that light doesn't need a medium to travel. As far as biologists go, that's not what I was taught in school. Are you now saying, besides you don't exist, that you are immortal since you make no distinction between life and non-life? Are you saying, that even though the odds are fantastically against plants and animals starting out at the same time, that by unbelievable chance that's what actually happened and is there proof of this? You keep on painting yourself into corners you can't get out of.

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

I've lost all interest in this topic.

[Hobbes' Choice]

What you said here can be used as an argument for the multiverse which I don't think you'll ever believe in.

So usually your post are just a bit mad. This one is barking.

So Hobbes, what's your explanation for the earth events happening here instead of elsewhere in our universe (to the best of our knowledge?) How could life arise on our planet?

100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000 x the average number of earth type planets per system; like I said.

Have plants and animals started at the same time
(the odds against this happening is astronomically high) as they're mutually dependent for their oxygen and CO2?

This shows a woeful ignorance of evolution. The first living things do not comply with either 'plant' or 'animal'. Primitive bacteria need only the raw material and energy; subsequent bacteria exploited the by products of those primary producers and so on.

How did the human brain evolve - what random event led to the development of the human brain which occurred first before there was ever language development

Langauge pre-dates the evolution of humans. Look, if you are a god botherer just fucking say so and we can all go home and leave you to your confusion; until then try reading a fucking book.

e.g.? Are you going to tell me that evolution knew there was going to be a need for humans to communicate with one another vocally or that it would be an advantage? How did evolution arrange for this involved process to happen which the scientists still don't know (although they come up with unproven theories?) And the best you can come up with is "The dice just happened to fall here." It seems the dice not only came up with one thing, but a whole series of events, each of which the odds against the event occurring are astronomically high, but for which the odds are higher still against (I listed just two examples).

PhilX

Are you going to tell me that we've waited billions of years for humans to come along , yet it was all designed for us in the first place?? You might want to get a life with that book on basic evolution that you need to buy.

HC said:

"100,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000 x the average number of earth type planets per system; like I said."

And how many of these have life on them?

"Primitive bacteria need only the raw material and energy; subsequent bacteria exploited the by products of those primary producers and so on."

Bacteria need oxygen to survive. If they preceded plants, then where did they get their oxygen? (btw I know about anerobic bacteria which I don't think is what you're talking about).

PhilX

How many have life on them - it doesn't matter. The point is that with those odds there is nothing special about life on earth.
Not all bacteria need oxygen to live. What is your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoloricus_nov._sp.

[Philosophy Explorer]

How many have life on them - it doesn't matter. The point is that with those odds there is nothing special about life on earth.
Not all bacteria need oxygen to live. What is your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoloricus_nov._sp.

Of course it matters how many have life on them. Because if no others planets do, that does make us special so can you prove at this time that there is life elsewhere? And you're repeating what I said about anerobic bacteria as I anticipated your argument - why would anerobic bacteria evolve into oxygen breathing animals if there no oxygen around to breathe (or how could there be plants with no animals around - how would the plants survive?)

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

Phil. Every gram of oxygen in the earth's atmosphere has been produced by living organisms. There is no known mechanism by which a planetary atmosphere can contain oxygen in the absence of life to produce it.

[Philosophy Explorer]

Phil. Every gram of oxygen in the earth's atmosphere has been produced by living organisms. There is no known mechanism by which a planetary atmosphere can contain oxygen in the absence of life to produce it.

It's common knowledge that plants produce the oxygen. And it's common knowledge that animals produce the CO2 that plants need so they are mutually dependent on each other. If either plants or animals came first on this planet means they couldn't survive for long. It's possible that they both could have started out at the same time, but that would be over a million-to-one shot.

PhilX

[Hobbes' Choice]

How many have life on them - it doesn't matter. The point is that with those odds there is nothing special about life on earth.
Not all bacteria need oxygen to live. What is your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinoloricus_nov._sp.

Of course it matters how many have life on them. Because if no others planets do, that does make us special so can you prove at this time that there is life elsewhere? And you're repeating what I said about anerobic bacteria as I anticipated your argument - why would anerobic bacteria evolve into oxygen breathing animals if there no oxygen around to breathe (or how could there be plants with no animals around - how would the plants survive?)

PhilX

You can argue this either way.

If a million planets all have human civilisations then that must mean that the AP is so strong that this has happened time and again.

The point is that in every planet where the conditions of life are present - it will of necessity happen. The fact that there are 100 billion times a 100 billion stars most thought to have planets that means that the odds that one is going to have the conditions of life is not special or remarkable.

Your thinking on bacteria is confused.
At the sub cellular level DNA is readily available, highly mutative (especially in primitive atmospheres lacking ozone), and the potential for mass. Exchange of genetic material is regarded by biologists are far more promiscuous than you imagine. We tend to think of living things from the perspective of macro organisms. There is more genetic variability in the shit under your fingernails than in the entire mammalian class; and bacteria are perfectly capable of stealing DNA from other bacteria.
Once life has started the potential for bacteria quickly exploiting a range of living strategies is not remarkable given the conditions.

It's common knowledge that plants produce the oxygen. And it's common knowledge that animals produce the CO2 that plants need so they are mutually dependent on each other. If either plants or animals came first on this planet means they couldn't survive for long. It's possible that they both could have started out at the same time, but that would be over a million-to-one shot.

PhilX

So what, we are talking about bacteria, which are neither.

[Obvious Leo]

Phil. It is photosynthesis which produces the oxygen in our atmosphere and the overall contribution of plants to photosynthesis is relatively minor. The vast majority of the oxygen in our atmosphere is produced by bacteria, algae and phytoplankton. Animals evolved some hundreds of millions of years before even the most primitive of plants.

[Philosophy Explorer]

Phil. It is photosynthesis which produces the oxygen in our atmosphere and the overall contribution of plants to photosynthesis is relatively minor. The vast majority of the oxygen in our atmosphere is produced by bacteria, algae and phytoplankton. Animals evolved some hundreds of millions of years before even the most primitive of plants.

Where did the animals get their oxygen? Where did the first life get their basic requirements from?

PhilX

[Obvious Leo]

Hobbes. You make some good points about the importance of bacteria in driving evolutionary processes. Under certain conditions a bacterium can change 30% of its entire genome in 24 hours through lateral gene transfer, which in genetic terms is analagous to an oyster spontaneously mutating into a banana.

[Obvious Leo]

[

Where did the animals get their oxygen?

From the atmosphere.

Where did the first life get their basic requirements from?

From whatever was to hand.

[Philosophy Explorer]

Oxygen wasn't always in our atmosphere:

http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-bul ... out-oxygen

PhilX