How responsible is the US for the rise of ISIS?

[henry quirk]

Some one's *gotta say it and it might as well be me...

Blow 'em all up and let Inglorious's god and Allah sort out the mess.









*well, no, nobody's gotta say it...

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Some one's *gotta say it and it might as well be me...

Blow 'em all up and let Inglorious's god and Allah sort out the mess.

Who is 'em'?







*well, no, nobody's gotta say it...

Who is 'em'?

[Obvious Leo]

Although it's perfectly accurate in a certain context it's rather too easy to blame Islam itself for all the shit that's going down because Islam is no more ridiculous than any other belief system, all of which are equally absurd. All we're seeing here is simple human biology asserting itself because young blokes join gangs and fight just because they like it and the reason why they do it is somewhat tangential to the fact. There isn't a society on the planet where disillusioned and disenfranchised young men don't band together to stick it to the society they live in and ISIS is just an extreme example of a social phenomenon which is as old as Sanskrit.

[Dubious]

All we're seeing here is simple human biology asserting itself because young blokes join gangs and fight just because they like it and the reason why they do it is somewhat tangential to the fact. There isn't a society on the planet where disillusioned and disenfranchised young men don't band together to stick it to the society they live in and ISIS is just an extreme example of a social phenomenon which is as old as Sanskrit.

It gets a little bit complicated when these 'young blokes' want to eradicate other human biology(s) but evidently there is a huge reward in the Muslim heaven for doing so - especially for males.

[Obvious Leo]

Sure. I'm not denying that this is obviously a more extreme example of this sort of expression of male adolescent angst and that religious zealotry would be responsible for the severity of it. However it would take only a little bit of tinkering with the plot and the characters to see essentially the same story develop as the one that's been played out across human culture for thousands of years. Those that are thirsty for wealth and power quickly learn how to exploit such blatantly obvious human weaknesses for gain. Brainwashing a jihadi is probably no more difficult than brainwashing a green beret.

[Dubious]

However it would take only a little bit of tinkering with the plot and the characters to see essentially the same story develop as the one that's been played out across human culture for thousands of years.

Anyone who knows anything about history would find it hard to disagree.

Those that are thirsty for wealth and power quickly learn how to exploit such blatantly obvious human weaknesses for gain.

Again true depending on how you meant it. The CEO's of such myths are comparatively rare compared to those who are willing to accept it. Going back ~ 500 years how many popes even then actually believed in the myth of Christ compared to all those who were convinced of it, ever ready to justify it by any and all means based on interpretation only as expounded by its monopolistic interpreters for the sake of power! Most of history wouldn't be what it is without an army of those who follow blindly or who have no choice but to follow in spite of knowing better.

Brainwashing a jihadi is probably no more difficult than brainwashing a green beret.

This part is frankly ridiculous. Since when and by what training would a green beret be convinced to plant bombs in concert halls, restaurants or any public place to kill as many civilians as possible purely for the purpose of invoking terror or commit suicide in the attempt? Such a severe 'anomaly' for a green beret is business as usual for a jihadist. I can't imagine a green beret yelling 'God is Great' regardless of whatever deed he is about to perpetrate.

[Obvious Leo]

What was I thinking? Fancy imagining that the US military could be capable of slaughtering innocent civilians. Must have been a brain fart.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Although it's perfectly accurate in a certain context it's rather too easy to blame Islam itself for all the shit that's going down because Islam is no more ridiculous than any other belief system, all of which are equally absurd. All we're seeing here is simple human biology asserting itself because young blokes join gangs and fight just because they like it and the reason why they do it is somewhat tangential to the fact. There isn't a society on the planet where disillusioned and disenfranchised young men don't band together to stick it to the society they live in and ISIS is just an extreme example of a social phenomenon which is as old as Sanskrit.

Very true. It's an example of what happens when people have a free rein to indulge their psychopathic sadism. That's hardly unique to islam. Americans have done equally atrocious things. My Lai is only one example.

[Obvious Leo]

Nazi Germany is also an extreme example of where banal and ordinary people got swept into a death cult for no other reason than it allowed them to identify themselves with the "in" crowd. It's a form of mass hysteria and quite well understood in the literature.

"Homo hominis lupus est".....Plautus. "man is the wolf of man"

[henry quirk]

"Who is 'em'?"

Well, I did say, '...let Inglorious's god and Allah sort out the mess.'

Thought I was pretty clear.

[Dubious]

What was I thinking? Fancy imagining that the US military could be capable of slaughtering innocent civilians. Must have been a brain fart.

Yeah you did have a brain fart! I didn't say it couldn't happen (that's what the 'anomaly' was for). The point being what amounts to an exception in this case, would be routine for a jihadist whose intent is to kill as many civilians as possible then brag about and receive accolades or rewards in heaven if he had to self-sacrifice. While the Americans and most other nationalities by no means are clean when it comes to crimes against civilians, I don't imagine it being a part of the methodology.

[Obvious Leo]

What do you think George W Bush meant when he said that the US intervention in Iraq was fulfilling god's will? Was this not a religiously-driven ideological statement? I'm not suggesting that this was in any sense the true US motive for their invasion but to persuade people to go and get their arses shot off for the personal benefit of some bloated plutocrat is no bargain. You've got to soften them up a bit first with some sort of higher-purpose bullshit, whether it be god, "freedom" or the great American Way. Throwing innocents to the wolves takes a bit of planning, as Joseph Goebbels would confirm.

[Arising_uk]

Americans do understand that ISIS came out of the chaos of Iraq during the insurgency don't they?

[Philosophy Explorer]

Americans do understand that ISIS came out of the chaos of Iraq during the insurgency don't they?

I do which is the main reason why I set up this thread.

PhilX

[henry quirk]

Let's say (as many here believe) America is wholly responsible for islamic fundies goin' off the deep end...yes, it's 'our' fault the dogs done gone rabid.

What would you have us do about it?

I was clear, up-thread, what I think ought to happen...but what do 'you' think America should do 'now'?