Philosophy Now Forum

Does Suetonius cover the whole Julio-Claudian era, Hobbes?

So miscommunication is the problem. That, I am wholeheartedly in agreement with.

Dalek Prime wrote:Does Suetonius cover the whole Julio-Claudian era, Hobbes?

His book is known as the Twelve Casears, and starts with JC and works his way through the 11 emperors. So he carries on past Claudius to Nero, Vespasian etc. to Domitian

But you ought to be warned he was writing at the time of Hadrian as was keen to portray the lurid details thus showing Hadrian to have reached a pinnacle of leadership.

You can read it for free from project gutenberg, of via Kindle services.

cladking wrote:

Jaded Sage wrote:So language is the root of all evil, eh?

Sure!!! It's the root of all good as well.

It is my contention that once we address the weaknesses of language most of them can be solved or mitigated. The benefits will be widespread and profound.

The principle problem isn't that it leads directly to confusion because we each understand what we're thinking. Modern language is superior for thought. The problem is in communication and how it can indirectly lead to confused thought. We don't know what each other mean so we get confused messages and these can be incorporated into our own thought. The reality is that almost nothing is known so we fill the void with ideas that we come up with ourselves or appropriate from others. We think everything is known but no two people view the same thing the same way because we each have our own individual knowledge, belief, and perspective.

It's not so much language that is good or evil but the ideas we are (mis)communicating. Good and evil are the actions of people now that we think in modern language and these actions are predicated on our beliefs which are predicated on language.

Several years ago I was talking to someone who was writing a paper on the difficulties encountered when two people with different language backgrounds tried to communicate. His example was Germany and France, and noting the difference in thought processes as illustrated in the language, it was said "no wonder they have been fighting wars for centuries." The differences are even greater when you consider American English and the far eastern languages such as Chinese or Japanese. I had owned a Hobby shop and reading the instructions in English for a kit produced in Japan could be quite amusing, It was obvious when the person translating the instructions spoke primarily Japanese and was translating into English, by the book.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

Dalek Prime wrote:Does Suetonius cover the whole Julio-Claudian era, Hobbes?

His book is known as the Twelve Casears, and starts with JC and works his way through the 11 emperors. So he carries on past Claudius to Nero, Vespasian etc. to Domitian

But you ought to be warned he was writing at the time of Hadrian as was keen to portray the lurid details thus showing Hadrian to have reached a pinnacle of leadership.

You can read it for free from project gutenberg, of via Kindle services.

Sounds good. I'll add it to my shortlist. Thanks for the info.

thedoc wrote: Several years ago I was talking to someone who was writing a paper on the difficulties encountered when two people with different language backgrounds tried to communicate. His example was Germany and France, and noting the difference in thought processes as illustrated in the language, it was said "no wonder they have been fighting wars for centuries." The differences are even greater when you consider American English and the far eastern languages such as Chinese or Japanese. I had owned a Hobby shop and reading the instructions in English for a kit produced in Japan could be quite amusing, It was obvious when the person translating the instructions spoke primarily Japanese and was translating into English, by the book.

Do you find it remarkable that people who were born and raised in a different culture and learned to speak a different language actually grow up to think in a different way from Americans?

You have admitted elsewhere that you know next to nothing of the world beyond your own borders so I don't find it remarkable that you would find this remarkable. However I do find it fucking scary because I know for a fact that people like you are in the majority in your country.

Obvious Leo wrote:

thedoc wrote: Several years ago I was talking to someone who was writing a paper on the difficulties encountered when two people with different language backgrounds tried to communicate. His example was Germany and France, and noting the difference in thought processes as illustrated in the language, it was said "no wonder they have been fighting wars for centuries." The differences are even greater when you consider American English and the far eastern languages such as Chinese or Japanese. I had owned a Hobby shop and reading the instructions in English for a kit produced in Japan could be quite amusing, It was obvious when the person translating the instructions spoke primarily Japanese and was translating into English, by the book.

Do you find it remarkable that people who were born and raised in a different culture and learned to speak a different language actually grow up to think in a different way from Americans?

You have admitted elsewhere that you know next to nothing of the world beyond your own borders so I don't find it remarkable that you would find this remarkable. However I do find it fucking scary because I know for a fact that people like you are in the majority in your country.

I don't find it remarkable, but I do think it is unfortunate, not that I don't welcome different ways of thinking about a problem or subject, but I do believe that it leads to problems when people don't clearly understand each other. I don't recall stating that I know little about other countries, I will admit that I haven't traveled outside the US, I do participate in forums that have membership from all over the world. It should be noted that in spite of the wide availability of computers the very bottom of the economic scale do not have such access. I do try to understand the different perspectives, what I don't understand is the hostility of some towards the US, sorry I do understand some of it, I just don't believe it's all justified.

The federal government has been very lax in asking me what should be done in each situation.

thedoc wrote: I don't find it remarkable, but I do think it is unfortunate,

You're making my argument for me better than I can make it for myself, doc. You truly don't understand how staggeringly offensive this remark is, do you? You have just agreed with me that you find it regrettable that people from other countries don't think like Americans because it is quite impossible for Americans to think like them. Do you have any idea how arrogant this stance is and how dangerous and threatening it makes your country appear to the rest of the world?

Obvious Leo wrote:

thedoc wrote: I don't find it remarkable, but I do think it is unfortunate,

You're making my argument for me better than I can make it for myself, doc. You truly don't understand how staggeringly offensive this remark is, do you? You have just agreed with me that you find it regrettable that people from other countries don't think like Americans because it is quite impossible for Americans to think like them. Do you have any idea how arrogant this stance is and how dangerous and threatening it makes your country appear to the rest of the world?

What is so offensive about stating that it is unfortunate that people don't understand each other, I never stated that everyone should think and act like Americans. I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder and start reading what I write, not what you think I am writing.

There's no doubt "ugly Americans" exist and most US citizens make rather poor ambassadors.

But I think this is just a misunderstanding.

thedoc wrote:
Several years ago I was talking to someone who was writing a paper on the difficulties encountered when two people with different language backgrounds tried to communicate. His example was Germany and France, and noting the difference in thought processes as illustrated in the language, it was said "no wonder they have been fighting wars for centuries." The differences are even greater when you consider American English and the far eastern languages such as Chinese or Japanese. I had owned a Hobby shop and reading the instructions in English for a kit produced in Japan could be quite amusing, It was obvious when the person translating the instructions spoke primarily Japanese and was translating into English, by the book.

In any case this is not what I'm talking about. Yes, it's relevant since it points out the difficulty of translating and understanding different perspectives but these different perspectives very much occur between any two individuals. Even identical twins raised together are sometimes going to misunderstand one another. Every word in every modern language derives its meaning from context and this meaning must be deduced by the listener. The perspective is always all important but modern language assumes a shared perspective. How we derive the meaning depends on this presumably shared perspective and then we must not only assign literal meaning, definitional meaning, to each word but also connotative meaning. The odds against being understood are staggering.

We speak a confused language. ALL modern languages are confused but can't even see it. We usually achieve some approximation of meaning and assume it's good enough but we can't tell whether that approximation is nearly spot on or the very opposite of what was the original intent. We have no way to know.

We think all language must be this way but this isn't true. Only humans speak this confusion. It was only the ancient technology that was developed through the ancient language that made it possible for the human race to survive long ebnough to invent modern science and the only reason modern science can work is the ability to communicate in scientific language based on premises and experimental results.

But we still speak confused language and scientists still see the world in terms of modern language. Of course many individual scientists can see it in terms of scientific language to a large extent but this language is insufficient to all human needs.

The language which arose to solve a problem is now creating new problems that are just as significant as the original problem. This is, unfortunately, a philosophical problem.

Amazing how a thread about intellectual vanity turns into another anti-american screed.

All you folks who despise America/Americans, we get it...you've told us over and over and over how crappy we are, how much you dislike or hate us, how we aren't worth spit.

The message is received, loud and clear.

I promise, we bottom of the barrel, genetically and culturally retarded, crap meisters will eat bullets soon enough, leaving all you elevated, superior, types to reshape the world into whatever utopia tickles your collected fancies.

Till then: mebbe all you righteous folks can stop hijacking threads?

Pretty please?

henry quirk wrote:Amazing how a thread about intellectual vanity turns into another anti-american screed.

Till then: mebbe all you righteous folks can stop hijacking threads?

Pretty please?

It is quite apposite.
Americans bring it on themselves.

Take Texans for example - they bang on and on about Texas "I'm a Texan, and proud if it", ad nauseam! `The go on and on about individuality, moments before they join the Line Dancing, Cheerleading and flag-waving ,hat wearing morons in a steak eating competition preaching "abstinence works", in the state with the highest number of teen pregnancies in the Western World. All together now "I am a Texan!"': "We are Texans"; "I am an individual"; "We are all individuals".

And you don't think the topic of "appearing unintelligent" is not relevant.
Generally English people don't go on about individuality or about being English all the time. Individuals don't need to brag. Bragging about individuality is a sign that you are insecure about your own.

Brits don't brag cuz they ain't got nuthin' to brag on: dead apple core of an empire, an inbred noble class, sharia takin' hold left and right, ugly women and gay men.

The mouse that roared.

Only thing of worth comin' out of Britain: America.

If you can generalize, so can I.

henry quirk wrote:Brits don't brag cuz they ain't got nuthin' to brag on:.

So fucking predictable.

Yes, you are.