Page 3 of 5
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 5:47 pm
by Bill Wiltrack
.
Well, once you seek to know you will inevitably come to conclusions.
Those conclusions are specific to you alone; your truths.
Philosophically, those are your opinions; what you believe in; your beliefs.
Okay - Now breath forchristssake!
You kind-of just restated my title in a different way. IMO
Now give me a real belief/opinion of yours that I can sink my teeth into.
.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 6:58 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Well, once you seek to know you will inevitably come to conclusions.
Those conclusions are specific to you alone; your truths.
No they are not. You are confusing knowledge with belief.
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Philosophically, those are your opinions; what you believe in; your beliefs.
Clearly you do not have a working distinction between belief and knowledge.
This is no surprising, given the country of your birth. Though I have to say that in some of the better Universities of the US there is a working distinction. I think your problem is that your cultural influence is tainted by the fundamentally religious nature and of the early founders of the American colonies that fled the Toleration of England to establish a series of theocracies in the New World.
Your inheritance, then, is that for vast parts of the USA the epistemological changes of the Enlightenment were lost to you, and your kin.
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Okay - Now breath forchristssake!
You kind-of just restated my title in a different way. IMO
Now give me a real belief/opinion of yours that I can sink my teeth into.
.
I told you
I believe nothing. That's the whole point.
Why not run along and come back with a working definition that draws a useful distinction between belief and knowledge, or ask me what I meant by it.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 7:20 pm
by Bill Wiltrack
.
Knowledge IS belief.
We can believe something to be true or false, right or wrong, or just simply know it.
We, as human beings, know nothing.
We cannot know the true nature of things.
Philosophically,
I know that I know nothing.
~ Socrates ~
I interpret that to mean that all we know is actually belief.
You may believe in what you know, you may call belief knowledge, but none the less all & everything we know IS belief.
I respect you for you may be the first one responding to this thread that actually will hold-on to that belief of yours.
I like that.
It's finally what I wanted from this post and you are real in your belief.
...by the way, I don't wish to change you or your belief that knowledge is knowledge of real things.
We just believe different things.
Thank you for playing.
.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:12 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Knowledge IS belief.
We can believe something to be
.
That's why you are not a worthy adversary.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:13 pm
by David Handeye
Bill Wiltrack wrote:
We cannot know the true nature of things.
so you're a kantian, Bill.
We can know only phenomena, never the things in themselves. Das ding an sich, as Kant said.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:42 pm
by Skip
We cannot know the true nature of things.
How do you know?
I figure, whatever I know about things is either true or false or - most likely - some portion is true and some portion is false.
But if
know that you cannot know the true nature of anything, then you are claiming to be able to know the true nature of your knowledge, which means ...
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 9:11 pm
by Bill Wiltrack
.
Good point...you may have out-did me.
Would it be better if I said, I believe we cannot know the true nature of things.
I kind-of think that the I believe part of the sentence above is implied.
Actually, I believe that is what was meant within that famous quote supposedly made by Socrates...IF there was a Socrates, To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge.
...and similar supposed quote, The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
...and,
True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.
and,
True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
Knowing that ALL knowledge is just an ever-changing belief seems to me to be a basic tenant of wisdom.
~ Bill Wiltrack III ~
...just my humble opinion/belief.
I believe the other poster saw my position, understood it to be more logical, could not stand that - then attacked me personally. Like a firing shot after you realize, fuck-it. I lost...
I'm good with that. I did not expect them to be able to question their belief upon a philosophical forum.
.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 9:50 pm
by Skip
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Would it be better if I said, I believe we cannot know the true nature of things.
I kind-of think that the I believe part of the sentence above is implied.
I do not
believe (It is contrary to my assumptions) that such a comprehensive, unequivocal statement allows of its major tenet being merely implied.
Actually, I believe that is what was meant within that famous quote supposedly made by Socrates...IF there was a Socrates, To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge.
Probably.... but then, he was full of it... and of himself.
All those pseudo-humble statements were intended to be heard as "I'm wise. You're a nincompoop. Sit at my feet and gaze up in silence."
On the other hand, you are genuinely humble - howbeit in a very loud manner.
(* and I assumed this was meant in fun, not earnest)
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 10:16 pm
by Bill Wiltrack
.
How do assumptions differ from knowledge?
Are assumptions based upon knowledge?
.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 10:38 pm
by Hobbes' Choice
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
How do assumptions differ from knowledge?
Are assumptions based upon knowledge?
.
ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK-UPS
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 10:57 pm
by Skip
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
How do assumptions differ from knowledge?
Are assumptions based upon knowledge?
.
As with a pair of tens, it all depends on who holds them and in what hand.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:03 am
by Obvious Leo
My most strongly held belief or opinion is that strongly held beliefs or opinions are stupid. All opinions should be subject to change without notice or explanation in the light of new information. However I don't hold this opinion very strongly and may yet change my mind about it.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:11 am
by Dalek Prime
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
How do assumptions differ from knowledge?
Are assumptions based upon knowledge?
.
ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK-UPS
Please!...
Leave my mother out of this
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:46 am
by Arising_uk
Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Everything is everything.
Tautology so always true but does not address my belief.
Everything is nothing.
Contradiction so always false.
Nothing is everything.
Contradiction so always false.
Nothing is nothing;
Tautology so always true but does not address my belief.
Everything is everything.
You've already said this?
You say, I am. I say you are nothing.
Thereby confirming 'I am'. It's also a contradiction as if I am nothing who would you be talking to?
Show me the difference between your I and my I.
You are just confirming 'I am' and that you are as well.
There is no you behind the I am.
Doesn't have to be, just 'I am' which you are confirming with your every word.
Pretty poor challenges, philosophically that is.
Re: ~ Give Me Your Strongest Held Belief or Opinion ~
Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 11:21 am
by Bill Wiltrack
.
To be honest with you, I asked for, your strongest held belief or opinion.
You provided me with a jumbled-up mess of phrases that I could not determine if they formed one strongest held belief, were seperate catch-phraesr were just several play on words.
Could you possibly give me one strongly held belief that I could actually make sense of?
.