Ned wrote:My problem with believers is that they don't seem to mind and they don't demand an explanation for the creation of a cruel world!
Or maybe they just don't accept your contention that it's a cruel world (at least on the carnivore vs vegetarian piece). Your perception does not have to be their reality.
But still, I'm curious: do you think you don't choose not to harm others? You're incapable of choosing to harm?
As for the omnipotent and omniscient dilemma, I missed the post. But, assuming I know what you mean, there's no a dilemma. The third choice is simply that God knows all possible outcomes, so chooses the best one. Omnipotent doesn't mean God has to do something, merely that God can.
ReliStuPhD wrote:Or maybe they just don't accept your contention that it's a cruel world (at least on the carnivore vs vegetarian piece). Your perception does not have to be their reality.
I guess we would have to agree on the definition of the 'cruel' word.
I will wait now for a while to see if anyone else wants to answer my questions. I already know your stand on these issues and I am curious about other opinions. The more the merrier, a variety of voices provide more interesting feedback for my book. Thanks for the dialogue though, I really enjoyed it.
Ned wrote:I guess we would have to agree on the definition of the 'cruel' word.
Yes. I think this is the sticking point for sure.
Ned wrote:I will wait now for a while to see if anyone else wants to answer my questions. I already know your stand on these issues and I am curious about other opinions. The more the merrier, a variety of voices provide more interesting feedback for my book. Thanks for the dialogue though, I really enjoyed it.
Happy to. I enjoyed it as well! And if I missed your omnipotence+omniscience question, my apologies. There are certainly answers to that one, though, so if you don't get any takers, just ask again.
God created people with free will because the worship of automotons would be meaningless, so God created humans with the ability to choose to worship God or not. It seems that free will carries a lot of other baggage that some object to, and there is some controversy about vegetarians getting all the nutrients that are necessary for good health, I don't know and I don't care, since I eat my share of meat.
Ned wrote:Seems like we are going around in circles.
And it still does not explain why god created carnivores. I am a vegetarian (with millions of others) and we suffer no ill effects. Actually, it is a lot healthier than eating meat. So how would humanity and all the animals be automatons if they ate only vegetables, instead of each other?
If I believed in god, I would REALLY hate him just for this one thing.
My problem with believers is that they don't seem to mind and they don't demand an explanation for the creation of a cruel world!
Part of that stems from Cruel being a human assessment and not a part of nature. Nature is not cruel, it just is as it is, each creature eats what it has evolved to eat and thrive on. Without predators, herbivores would strip the environment and starve to death and would essentially eliminate themselves from existence. So predators are not cruel, just doing what they have evolved to do, by Gods design, if you are so inclined.
'god' was cruel for creating them in such a way that they can not survive without killing.
As far as the meaning of the word: 'cruel' is concerned, just think of the "cruelty to animals" laws. If I abuse my dog, my neighbor can report me to the authorities and I could be in serious trouble. However, my mistreating my dog causes far less pain than what is caused by the cheetah ripping the throat out of an antelope.
I watched a nature show the other day and observed the chase, the prey desperately trying to escape and screaming with agony when the teeth and the claws dug into its flesh. Now multiply this by millions of events each day (involving all the predators on the planet - large and small) and then you have some idea about the cruel nature god created. And he had no excuse, because being omnipotent, he could have created a world based on a different design.
However, I have another question.
How many christians (%) believe in evolution?
Those who don't, how do they explain the similarity between human body/emotions to the animal body/emotions?
Anyone who ever had a cat or a dog must have wondered: they have the same symmetrical body structure: 2 eyes, 2 ears, one nose, one mouth, one tongue, teeth. They have the same internal organs: heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, pancreas, intestines, etc., etc. They eat the same way, they eliminate the same way, they procreate the same way. Their emotions are almost identical: fear, pain, pleasure, love, anger, shame, jealousy, etc, etc.
Evolution's answer is obvious: we evolved, by tiny incremental steps, over millions of years, due to random mutations influenced by the environment. That makes perfect sense.
Now, as far as 'freedom' to choose is concerned, I have heard some really strange ideas. I can make dozens of choices each day, such as: write my book or not, answer posts or not, continue my construction project or not, play music or not, visit a friend or not, etc., etc. However, if I am not able to do harm to another living thing, that makes me an automaton. Why is the ability to do harm so important? Why couldn't we be healthy, productive, purposeful people without it?
'god', being omnipotent, could easily have arranged it. He did not. Q.e.d.
If 'god' created the universe, with both animals and humans, shouldn't 'he' somehow made us different? Superior? (Oh yes we can build nuclear weapons and animals can't).
I still think we ought to have photosynthetic skin, huge ears to work as solar panels on our bodies, at least four arms to be able to handle things better, wings to move around easier, telescopic eyes, hair that never falls out, teeth that never rot, cells that resist cancer and all other nasty diseases.
And they call it "intelligent design"!!! Any intelligent 10-year old could have done better!
Not only it is cruel, but it is also inefficient and wasteful.
I still can not imagine anyone being able to sustain their faith, let alone 'worship' this hypothetical entity, in spite of all these undeniable facts. The answer must be that they haven't thought it through.
EDIT: Please think this over carefully before replying and try to consider everything I said, not just selected bits of it.
Last edited by Ned on Fri May 01, 2015 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
'god' was cruel for creating them in such a way that they can not survive without killing.
As far as the meaning of the word: 'cruel' is concerned, just think of the "cruelty to animals" laws. If I abuse my dog, my neighbor can report me to the authorities and I could be in serious trouble. However, my mistreating my dog causes far less pain than what is caused by the cheetah ripping the throat out of an antelope.
I watched a nature show the other day and observed the chase, the prey desperately trying to escape and screaming with agony when the teeth and the claws dug into its flesh. Now multiply this by millions of events each day (involving all the predators on the planet - large and small) and then you have some idea about the cruel nature god created. And he had no excuse, because being omnipotent, he could have created a world based on a different design.
However, I have another question.
How many christians (%) believe in evolution?
Those who don't, how do they explain the similarity between human body/emotions to the animal body/emotions?
Anyone who ever had a cat or a dog must have wondered: they have the same symmetrical body structure: 2 eyes, 2 ears, one nose, one mouth, one tongue, teeth. They have the same internal organs: heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, pancreas, intestines, etc., etc. They eat the same way, they eliminate the same way, they procreate the same way. Their emotions are almost identical: fear, pain, pleasure, love, anger, shame, jealousy, etc, etc.
Evolution's answer is obvious: we evolved, by tiny incremental steps, over millions of years, due to random mutations influenced by the environment. That makes perfect sense.
Now, as far as 'freedom' to choose is concerned, I have heard some really strange ideas. I can make dozens of choices each day, such as: write my book or not, answer posts or not, continue my construction project or not, play music or not, visit a friend or not, etc., etc. However, if I am not able to do harm to another living thing, that makes me an automaton. Why is the ability to do harm so important? Why couldn't we be healthy, productive, purposeful people without it?
'god', being omnipotent, could easily have arranged it. He did not. Q.e.d.
If 'god' created the universe, with both animals and humans, shouldn't 'he' somehow made us different? Superior? (Oh yes we can build nuclear weapons and animals can't).
I still think we ought to have photosynthetic skin, huge ears to work as solar panels on our bodies, at least four arms to be able to handle things better, wings to move around easier, telescopic eyes, hair that never falls out, teeth that never rot, cells that resist cancer and all other nasty diseases.
And they call it "intelligent design"!!! Any intelligent 10-year old could have done better!
Not only it is cruel, but it is also inefficient and wasteful.
I still can not imagine anyone being able to sustain their faith, let alone 'worship' this hypothetical entity, in spite of all these undeniable facts. The answer must be that they haven't thought it through.
Well Ned, on this basis I guess we are forced to conclude that if God exists he is a piecemeal engineer.
Therefore he could have created a world without fear, pain and suffering.
He did not.
Why?
One of the Christian responses to this question is to draw attention to the fact of human free will. A genuinely free will must be capable of choices...an preeminently, the choice between everything good (the ultimate Source of which is God) and everything bad (which is simply the deprivation or destruction of the good).
And it's not terribly unusual to think of free will as an exceedingly great human value. Many people have suffered extremely or even died either to achieve their freedom or to impart freedom to others. It's not unusual for us to relativize even the value of life itself in light of the surpassing value of freedom.
If the presence of pain or evil is necessary in order for free will to exist (and analytically, it would seem that it is) then Leibniz's "Best of All Possible Worlds" would have to include some measure of pain and suffering. A world without pain and suffering, but with no freedom, would be a less than "best" possible world.
Oh, I see...I was distracted by the unrelated line of thought that had developed, and so didn't read your full message. Instead, I was going back to your previous challenge. Sorry.
Let me pick you up where you left off.
Why is the ability to do harm so important? Why couldn't we be healthy, productive, purposeful people without it?
Try to picture it.
You have a world, and you live in it. You allegedly have a thing called "free will," involving a choice between the good and evil. But you are not permitted to act upon it. And why not? Because a Supreme Being prevents any kind of harm from happening. So you can desire to, say, strike another person, but you are completely unable to act upon any such desire.
Two questions: in what sense, then would we say you were actually "free"? And secondly, in what way would you consider such an arrangement as being capable of wanting but not ever having evil something consonant with the idea of the best possible world?
'god' was cruel for creating them in such a way that they can not survive without killing.
As far as the meaning of the word: 'cruel' is concerned, just think of the "cruelty to animals" laws. If I abuse my dog, my neighbor can report me to the authorities and I could be in serious trouble. However, my mistreating my dog causes far less pain than what is caused by the cheetah ripping the throat out of an antelope.
I watched a nature show the other day and observed the chase, the prey desperately trying to escape and screaming with agony when the teeth and the claws dug into its flesh. Now multiply this by millions of events each day (involving all the predators on the planet - large and small) and then you have some idea about the cruel nature god created. And he had no excuse, because being omnipotent, he could have created a world based on a different design.
I hope you don't mind if I answer you questions one at a time, it's easier for me to keep things straight. I suggest that your post supports my statement that cruelty is a human attribute and has no place in nature. You could get into trouble for being cruel to your pets and that comes from you taking responsibility for their care. No person takes the same kind of responsibility for wild animals, they take care of themselves. The officials in charge of wild animals only provide a place for them to exist without unnecessary interference from people. Perhaps God did create a world that had no predation and found that it was much less interesting for those living in that world, or perhaps the creatures in that world over populated and died out anyway.
Those who don't, how do they explain the similarity between human body/emotions to the animal body/emotions?
As far as the rest of your question, I believe in evolution, and I din't believe in intelligent design.
I'm not ready to accept that humans could design living creatures better that they have evolved. Usually those "improvements" are the result of humans not understanding what is going on in the first place.
Immanuel Can wrote: You allegedly have a thing called "free will," involving a choice between the good and evil. But you are not permitted to act upon it. And why not? Because a Supreme Being prevents any kind of harm from happening. So you can desire to, say, strike another person, but you are completely unable to act upon any such desire.
No, Immanuel, the supreme being, by the act of creating a humane world, with humane humans in it, removed the desire to strike another person. The desire would never happen because, according to an intelligent, gentle, loving god, he created us to be rational, constructive, benevolent creatures who would never dream of harming another living thing. I still could feel completely free to do anything I desire, because I never desire to hurt anyone.
Many of us are like that already (evolved a bit further than some) which proves my point that it is possible.
