E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You seem nice to me SoB (unfortunate acronym though :) )
OK Veggie, you put me to shame. Now I feel guilty, and want to say things like. Yes I know I come off as a hard ass sometimes, but it's hard with all this testosterone, and having a fracked up father to be the soft and tender male, ESPECIALLY AROUND ALL THE OTHER MALES, that might try and mess with my family unit...

You know we guys seem to always somehow get involved in a cock fight, probably a testament to testosterone, in that way you estrogen filled units have it made! I envy you, if only in that way. Fear I tell you, is in fact the key!!!!!

But thanks veggie, I love you too ;-)

Actually I love everyone that loves, and hate every one that hates, lest they change their mind, and start loving!

Put it this way, my wife's nickname for me is, GRIZZLY BEAR, GB for short, because not unlike a playful grizzly bear cub, I sometimes don't realize my own strength, and she means words as well.

As to the acronym, I'm OK with it, my old buddy "LanceK" was the first to mention it, I never really paid attention when I coined it. I guess I can be a "son of a bitch" sometimes, though only in the figurative sense.

Edit: typo
Last edited by SpheresOfBalance on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blaggard
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

@SoB

Now perhaps you know what it is like to have someone tell you what you think, instead of someone ask. It's not very nice is it. Do you see the point I was making? Probably not. But that's exactly how it feels to be talked down to and told how to think and how you think. Now maybe you'll stop doing it to everyone else, but I sincerely doubt it you're too busy telling everyone how they should lead their lives, and how they think to bother with the inconvenience of actually conversing with them. It's far easier to just throw out accusations and tell people how they think than it is to have a conversation where you don't dictate to them exactly what their motivations should be and how they should live their lives. You seldom are involved in an argument where you don't make some grandiose prognosis of the argument without bothering with what someone actually thinks, or what their argument actually is, I get the feeling when you are not telling me what I am thinking and my motivation for everything you are just waiting for a break in conversation to start talking over me again, and it's very frustrating to talk to someone who is on a soap box all the time. Telling it like it is, as if you have the right, some humility would be nice, who died and made you king?

And I have been poor my entire life so I know what that is like, I also suffered with severe SAD which resulted in clinical severe depression for 16 years only without medication so I know what pain is, for 3 months of the year I'd basically hibernate and so I found it difficult to hold onto long term work until I was medicated about 10 years ago when it was finally realised by the medical profession that it was a genuine physiological illness and the next generations of Dr's moved into practice.

I got lucky with some investments on the stock market, and now I can live comfortably, whilst I am not quite that rich I do have enough to live as I always did at least for the time being and then hopefully my investments will pay off too and I wont have to worry about money any more. And by the by I was only messing with that Danish guy because he was bragging about his huge bank balance, it wasn't meant to be taken as a boast, I was just messing around with his odd obsession with money, clearly people should go back and look at the context...

See now I feel like for once I am having an exchange, usually you charge in like a bull in a China shop and pronounce your views, and then proceed to tell everyone what's what, do you realise how annoying that is?
Last edited by Blaggard on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

Tell you what. You explain how evolutionary biology accounts for the 1.4 x 10exp-542 probability for the assembly of a small, 900 base-pair human gene, multiplied by 23,000 (the approximate number of genes in the human body, and I'll see what I can come back with-- iff you only answer with your own arguments, not by telling me to read Dawkins, etc. Likewise, no hand-waving Baynesian probability references, unless you do the mathematics.
These numbers are completely wrong and don't apply to a generational model at all, as you have been told before repeatedly mutation doesn't work like that, if you understood how a cell divides to form a haploid cell and then recombines with another beginning the process of meitosis to form a human being and how mutation accumulates, you would no doubt understand why your numbers are way off. Mutation produces tiny changes in the genome so that the next generation is pretty much indistinguishable from the last with perhaps a handful of mutations, if those mutations are viable they will be more likely to become widespread in the population, the fitness these genes confer meaning they are more able to survive and thus more likely to breed. Likewise mutation which are deleterious and enable an animal to be less adaptive will be less prone to be passed on to the next generation, which is called sexual selection, a part of natural selection.

So the gene number of say a rat at a few hundred million genes is changed in the next generation by the mutation coefficient called a dominance coefficient which can be used to model either the likelihood beneficial genes will remain or that deleterious ones will remain. This is used in population models to show the mutation rate which is the likelihood over time of mutation accumulation in a single population and is typically a small fraction.

Of the hundreds of millions of genes then only relatively few have changed. In the 66 or so million of years since mammals became the dominant species on Earth, and hence the vast bulk of the population for millions of years the small burrowing rat like creatures that are thought to be the ancestors of all mammals have over a few trillion generations produced with only a small change in mutation rates a diverse collection of mammals, if you multiply small changes by billions of billions of generations you end up with a large potential for speciation, especially given environments where species are relatively isolated such as Islands and peninsulars where the ingress of animals is relatively small and the breeding population is significant but relatively isolated.

So if you take the number of genes and use logistic model which incorporates a dominance coefficient over time you can show how very small changes to a populations genome can become large and cause speciation given enough time. Most people have the weird idea that suddenly speciation happens and suddenly shazam a rat like ancestor becomes a rat, but typically except in single celled or very simple organisms it is a gradual process over millions of generations, to the extent that if you were to look at it in purely human terms it would seem there was no appreciable change at all.

And no you don't read people's arguments do you. That's why you don't understand enough about anything to advance your numerical sophistry, which bears absolutely no relation to any sort of evolutionary process whatsoever. I have explained in detail how mutation models work, linked them including the logistic progression that model gene expression in science papers over both the short term and more longer term models. It's difficult to model systems over anything more than a few million years though, as the margins of error tend to become large. I've explained this now several times in several different ways providing scientific journal papers which explain it in depth which are freely accessible and what have you done? Ignored them because anything that doesn't fit into your ideas is just plain wrong. And this was before you had me on ignore. Stop ignoring anything to roller coaster on with specious maths that is about as apt to model evolution as it is to model any sort of physical or natural model. Exponential models are useful for physical processes and chemical processes but basically useless in biological models where the rate of change is incredibly small. Exponential models become widely inaccurate with time and the numbers balloon out of all proportion, and do not and can not hence in any way represent population models over time or hence the rate of mutation accumulation or the progression of evolution from single celled organism to simple multicellular organisms, let alone humans. To put it simply you are trying to use a square peg for a round hole, because you don't understand the science on the subject, having never studied it.

Logistic iterative models ftw. A logistic model would progress somewhat more realistically as the iterations are tiny, but will become significant given enough time, significant enough to explain the large diversity of life on Earth, with a few notable mysteries which are slowly being cleared up with time and a more complete picture of the fossil record. It's almost impossible to be sure of things that happened millions of years ago, let alone billions so the models have to by their nature be somewhat hypothetical. Although like with most things we can use speciation as it happens in modern times to infer how it might of happened in pre historic times.

You can waste your time throwing out pointless exponential progressions of gene expression all you like but it is completely impractical, widely unrealistic and shows a remedial understanding of biological systems, evolution, and natural selection as it regards mutation.

To put it simply if you take an insignificant mutation rate and apply it to hundreds of trillions of iterations, the size of mutation accumulation will be relatively large, large enough to explain the diversity of life. What it wont be though is exponential because few if any natural systems work remotely like that and it is meaningless and inappropriate to use such blunt mathematical tools in the reiteration processes that make up evolution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296245/

Here's a journal paper detailing a model of mutation so that you can see how it works in science, not that I expect you will read it but meh for reference it shows an actual scientific model. This is the sort of thing you should be attacking, you can't just ignore all the evidence out there and wade in with your own models with no regard where the field is or understanding of biology to any real level. It's frankly pointless and there's no reason anyone should take your maths seriously without knowing what it is you are actually modelling.
Estimation of the distribution of selection coefficients of mutations is a long-standing issue in molecular evolution. In addition to population-based methods, the distribution can be estimated from DNA sequence data by phylogenetic-based models. Previous models have generally found unimodal distributions where the probability mass is concentrated between mildly deleterious and nearly neutral mutations. Here we use a sitewise mutation–selection phylogenetic model to estimate the distribution of selection coefficients among novel and fixed mutations (substitutions) in a data set of 244 mammalian mitochondrial genomes and a set of 401 PB2 proteins from influenza. We find a bimodal distribution of selection coefficients for novel mutations in both the mitochondrial data set and for the influenza protein evolving in its natural reservoir, birds. Most of the mutations are strongly deleterious with the rest of the probability mass concentrated around mildly deleterious to neutral mutations. The distribution of the coefficients among substitutions is unimodal and symmetrical around nearly neutral substitutions for both data sets at adaptive equilibrium. About 0.5% of the nonsynonymous mutations and 14% of the nonsynonymous substitutions in the mitochondrial proteins are advantageous, with 0.5% and 24% observed for the influenza protein. Following a host shift of influenza from birds to humans, however, we find among novel mutations in PB2 a trimodal distribution with a small mode of advantageous mutations.

WHEN a novel mutation appears in the genome of an organism, it may have three different effects on the fitness (w = 1 + s) of its carrier: The mutation may be deleterious (s < 0), reducing fitness through reduced fertility or survival rate. It may be neutral (s ≈ 0), that is, having such a small effect on fitness that the fate of the mutant is mostly determined by random drift. Or the mutation may be advantageous (s > 0), increasing the fitness of its carrier by increasing its fertility or survival in its environment. The frequency distribution of the different types of mutants and their associated selection coefficients (s, also known as fitness effects) is a key issue in population genetics (Bustamante 2005; Eyre-Walker and Keightley 2007). The ultimate fate of a mutation, whether it will become fixed or lost in a population, depends on the strength of selection and on the effect of random drift due to finite population size. In fact, the fitness effect s and the population number N are so closely linked that normally the distribution is expressed in terms of the population scaled coefficient S = 2Ns.
I've only skimmed it to make sure it was related myself but it seems appropriate. You only need an understanding of calculus and of statistical distribution, since you studied engineering you should at least get the gist of this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... f/1101.pdf

PDF format link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296245/

Journal link.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Yes Blagg, what he said was a common misconception, I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox, which is the same sort of problem many people face when trying to wrap their little 100 year potential, never mind where they currently are along that potential, mind around something of such awesome amount of time or distances, namely that they're not capable of extrapolation across the board equally, such that, in this case, "all" aspects of life are evolving, so in essence part of their thinking applies a magic wand approach, to "POOF," create one of the constituents in question. He thinks that DNA didn't evolve, and that's where he screws up! It's only logical that there was proto-DNA.

Another thing to always remember as to the past, without proof, one can only speculate, and that's about it, no current man can ever know, for sure, what happened along that chain of life, without proofs, that are few and far between, all he can do is scribe as unbiased a record as he's capable, such that millions of years from now he can actually see the evolutionary process take place within that record, video/audio archives, comes to mind along with cryogenics, as they are the best way to store the facts, in this case. The current mans arrogance/ignorance/brain potential often gets in the way, a testament of his current evolutionary condition.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Blaggard wrote:@SoB

Now perhaps you know what it is like to have someone tell you what you think, instead of someone ask. It's not very nice is it. Do you see the point I was making? Probably not. But that's exactly how it feels to be talked down to and told how to think and how you think. Now maybe you'll stop doing it to everyone else, but I sincerely doubt it you're too busy telling everyone how they should lead their lives, and how they think to bother with the inconvenience of actually conversing with them. It's far easier to just throw out accusations and tell people how they think than it is to have a conversation where you don't dictate to them exactly what their motivations should be and how they should live their lives. You seldom are involved in an argument where you don't make some grandiose prognosis of the argument without bothering with what someone actually thinks, or what their argument actually is, I get the feeling when you are not telling me what I am thinking and my motivation for everything you are just waiting for a break in conversation to start talking over me again, and it's very frustrating to talk to someone who is on a soap box all the time. Telling it like it is, as if you have the right, some humility would be nice, who died and made you king?

And I have been poor my entire life so I know what that is like, I also suffered with severe SAD which resulted in clinical severe depression for 16 years only without medication so I know what pain is, for 3 months of the year I'd basically hibernate and so I found it difficult to hold onto long term work until I was medicated about 10 years ago when it was finally realised by the medical profession that it was a genuine physiological illness and the next generations of Dr's moved into practice.

I got lucky with some investments on the stock market, and now I can live comfortably, whilst I am not quite that rich I do have enough to live as I always did at least for the time being and then hopefully my investments will pay off too and I wont have to worry about money any more. And by the by I was only messing with that Danish guy because he was bragging about his huge bank balance, it wasn't meant to be taken as a boast, I was just messing around with his odd obsession with money, clearly people should go back and look at the context...

See now I feel like for once I am having an exchange, usually you charge in like a bull in a China shop and pronounce your views, and then proceed to tell everyone what's what, do you realise how annoying that is?
Wrong as usual, I only ever argue against the "words" that people use, if they care to correct them, thus making them clearer, they can. It's totally poppycock that I try and "force" thinking upon people, just word usage my friend, just word usage, of which, I hope for the same treatment. I have not written very often, obviously, something I need to improve upon. Ok maybe a little bit, I "attack" ones thinking process' ;-) but only when they make a blunder, yet they should be happy that I do so, as at it's roots, it's constructive criticism, I'm speaking of my intent here, as I often frame things to make huge impacts, so as to be clear. Try arguing my corrections instead of attacking my person for a change, as it was in fact you that started the shit between us, with that little "pecker" of a knife you have, that you want to "stick" me with, if I touch your "stuff," a physical impossibility here, your form of intimidation, to get your way, which actually sounds a little gay, not that I have anything against homosexuals, I truly believe in a live and let live approach to everyone, I don't care if you're gay, female, Muslim, catholic, Jew, black, rich, god, Satan, alien, amoeba, etc!
Blaggard
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

Man you are really obsessed with a silly joke off the cuff. Tell you this though you touch my fucking stuff, I will cut you and cut you bad. No one touches my fucking stuff, no one. Get it..?

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, you stop telling me how I think and what I should think, everything is gravy. This is a simple offering of a compromise and a hearty handshake. I didn't mean anything I said about you in the last x amount of posts, it was all a means to an end. You seem though to not be getting the message. It's really simple. Now I know I am a moron, and idiot and just thick, but one thing a moron who can't think proper like what smart people know, is that it's easy to thunk but harder to understand what someone thunk like init. If I as genuinely serious about ad homenims about you personally I like to think I might of done a better job, I like to think I wouldn't of done it at all which is kinda the point.

One thing I will say though is you have no right to tell me what I think any more than I did in any of those last posts, and that thunk was the point of the thunking thing of a moron who clearly is retarded, that I is.

You're absolutely right I have no idea who you are, your life story or anything to do with what makes you what you are. That means quite clearly I shouldn't presume anything about you, does it not, but quid pro quo.

You don't use their words to attack them if it was just about the argument ever, we would not be having this discussion, you go beyond the argument and indulge in ad homs far more often than you should, and that is what makes you annoying. I don't care about your personal life, at least if I never asked to know it, although it is of course relevant after all we are social creatures, if it was apt to a discussion by all means.

What I care about is that you tackle the argument in question, and refrain from tackling the person in question regardless of how much you think you know about people. Because as I think the point is and needs to be made, you have no idea what anyone is like on the medium we call interweb, so keep to the topic.

Now don't get me wrong I am not going to claim I never indulge in ad homs, everyone who is human and not a robot does, it's part of what makes us human, but I think you should only use them when all other means have been tried, not at the start of a discussion.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by thedoc »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox,

What paradox? Do you somehow believe that the chicken could somehow magically change creatures when hatching? The creature in the egg is the exact same creature that hatches out of the egg. So there is no other answer than the egg came first. The only people who can't understand that are grade school idiots.

The only thing that is a paradox is how some people still think that there is some question about which came first.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

thedoc wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox,

What paradox? Do you somehow believe that the chicken could somehow magically change creatures when hatching? The creature in the egg is the exact same creature that hatches out of the egg. So there is no other answer than the egg came first. The only people who can't understand that are grade school idiots.

The only thing that is a paradox is how some people still think that there is some question about which came first.
Incorrect! I will not elaborate, I've said enough as it is, the trap is for the old GREY BAD-ASSED COUNTRY FRACK! Lets see what BS the dipstick comes up with, unless he's "chicken" or maybe an "egg."
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

I actually quite like that SoB, and I know precisely where you are coming from, but it is a trap for ID proponents, I don't think he's one of the usual IDiots and hence I don't think he's going to fall for it.
thedoc wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox,

What paradox? Do you somehow believe that the chicken could somehow magically change creatures when hatching? The creature in the egg is the exact same creature that hatches out of the egg. So there is no other answer than the egg came first. The only people who can't understand that are grade school idiots.

The only thing that is a paradox is how some people still think that there is some question about which came first.
You need to think about evolution in broader terms, it is why this catches IDiots out and people who don't think about the bigger picture. If you think about it in scientific terms it becomes much, much more complicated, for very obvious reasons.

If you take it at face value then duh! ;)

I tried to send thedoc a private message but you have the feature disabled but suffice to say you might want to think about it more carefully. A scientist may answer: well it depends, a philosopher it would be asked that you define the terms.
Last edited by Blaggard on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by HexHammer »

thedoc wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox,

What paradox? Do you somehow believe that the chicken could somehow magically change creatures when hatching? The creature in the egg is the exact same creature that hatches out of the egg. So there is no other answer than the egg came first. The only people who can't understand that are grade school idiots.

The only thing that is a paradox is how some people still think that there is some question about which came first.
LOL? The zygots will randomly mix and may create from a 99.999999% chicken to a 100% chicken.

There are no definitive answer to this "fool's errand", since mutation can occur along the whole process, even when the chicken is it's adult state.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

Spoilers Hex but yeah. :)
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Blaggard wrote:Man you are really obsessed with a silly joke off the cuff. Tell you this though you touch my fucking stuff, I will cut you and cut you bad. No one touches my fucking stuff, no one. Get it..?

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, you stop telling me how I think and what I should think, everything is gravy. This is a simple offering of a compromise and a hearty handshake. I didn't mean anything I said about you in the last x amount of posts, it was all a means to an end. You seem though to not be getting the message. It's really simple. Now I know I am a moron, and idiot and just thick, but one thing a moron who can't think proper like what smart people know, is that it's easy to thunk but harder to understand what someone thunk like init. If I as genuinely serious about ad homenims about you personally I like to think I might of done a better job, I like to think I wouldn't of done it at all which is kinda the point.

One thing I will say though is you have no right to tell me what I think any more than I did in any of those last posts, and that thunk was the point of the thunking thing of a moron who clearly is retarded, that I is.

You're absolutely right I have no idea who you are, your life story or anything to do with what makes you what you are. That means quite clearly I shouldn't presume anything about you, does it not, but quid pro quo.

You don't use their words to attack them if it was just about the argument ever, we would not be having this discussion, you go beyond the argument and indulge in ad homs far more often than you should, and that is what makes you annoying. I don't care about your personal life, at least if I never asked to know it, although it is of course relevant after all we are social creatures, if it was apt to a discussion by all means.

What I care about is that you tackle the argument in question, and refrain from tackling the person in question regardless of how much you think you know about people. Because as I think the point is and needs to be made, you have no idea what anyone is like on the medium we call interweb, so keep to the topic.

Now don't get me wrong I am not going to claim I never indulge in ad homs, everyone who is human and not a robot does, it's part of what makes us human, but I think you should only use them when all other means have been tried, not at the start of a discussion.
My forte' is people, psychology, a child of philosophy, get used to it!

I could really care less about your whiny crap, of course I do care what it was in "truth" that has happened to you, your life! Why? Because that answers to psychology, a child of philosophy, my forte'.

I had a honest to goodness personality test done by PhD's. It said: that I was an "OBSERVER" and that I was so astute as to that observing, that I could actually know and would say, what people were going to say, before they said it, which socially, really piss's people off, as they hate to be superseded, always wanting to say their piece. This comes from largely understanding the man animal, from observing it for so long, trying to understand it, feeling so much at odds with it. All my life trying to figure out that which surely I can't be apart of, watching them like a hawk, sure a testament of fear and no trust. Still, I learned much! and am not very happy with much of it! But unlike some crazy fracks, only believe in argument, to try and enlighten. So get over it son.

The problem between you and I now though, is as you just admitted, you are a liar and I absolutely HATE liars as they are definitely not true lovers, of self, or anyone else for that matter, frightened of their own shadows. Grow up son, then maybe we can talk as equals, because until you stop with all the lies, there is no sense in talking to you. I shoot from the hip, try it, you just might find clarity in the process.

My heart would probably go out to you, if I could trust your story of hardship, but probably just another lie, that you dispense as some sort of smoke screen!

Again take your, would be, intimidation, and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, as that's what I'd do with it.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by Blaggard »

You didn't really get the point. Big wow. ;)

I had a test done once, it said at the end: who the fuck cares, there's no test that can measure any person even remotely.

If you did a test and it told you, you were Jesus and hence omniscient, would you hence think that it meant you were. Tests are for idiots.

Your forte is talking at people not with people. I am not so sure that is much of a forte, but you seem to think it is, so knock yourself out with that. I offered you an olive branch: you stop talking mindless vacuous shit at me as if you know me by magic, and I will return the favour, you don't and I will do exactly the same to you. It's your choice. But if you were sensible you wouldn't. Let the games commence though, because I suspect you are not sensible, and I does think we shall be doing this for a long old time. I will be firing wank at you with all the intensity no doubt that you fire it every one else, and on it will go.

Are you getting the point yet? No, then let's play a game, Tic Tac Toe. ;)
Last edited by Blaggard on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

HexHammer wrote:
thedoc wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote: I bet he doesn't know the proper answer to the "Chicken or the Egg" paradox,

What paradox? Do you somehow believe that the chicken could somehow magically change creatures when hatching? The creature in the egg is the exact same creature that hatches out of the egg. So there is no other answer than the egg came first. The only people who can't understand that are grade school idiots.

The only thing that is a paradox is how some people still think that there is some question about which came first.
LOL? The zygots will randomly mix and may create from a 99.999999% chicken to a 100% chicken.

There are no definitive answer to this "fool's errand", since mutation can occur along the whole process, even when the chicken is it's adult state.
See this is the type of logic that I find flawed. One states something's impossible, then explains why, the answer, thus not impossible! Of course most can use different words to say something similar, which is where some arguments originate, an argument not an argument, though neither can see.
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Re: E=MC2 a philosophical blunder.

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Blaggard wrote:You didn't really get the point. Big wow. ;)
Because you're a LIAR, are you dense as well? Only fools presume to know that one can see their words of jest as such, if they are such, often simply a tactic of further lies. Braggart, no one can truly get you, with your wall of lies, the most they can do, is just believe they do, usually a testament, only, of what they want to believe about themselves. ;-)
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