Immanuel Can wrote:theists also have only available "is" statements. Other inputs not mediated by society (revelation), because of their mystical, personal, unsocialized nature, become instantly relativistic when they are intended to apply to others. In order to convert my personal god-related convictions into everyone's convictions, I must necessarily communicate with others and express the universality of my claims("these rules come from god"), but the widespread coexistence of conflicting "revelations", all of which can be explained by cultural conditions, eliminates any pretension of universality from theism. You have acknowledged yourself, perhaps unintentionally, moral relativism in the ranks of theism.
Not at all. Just read my previous response carefully, and you'll see. Theists can have "oughts" because they have an Authoritative basis for doing so. Atheists acknowledge no authority beyond the human, and humans only have authority if they happen to have power.
About the "is-ought" problem, even if I assumed the argument being true (which I don't), it would work also against your own case, as your "ought" will be traced back to an "is". You claim there
IS god. Using your own words, it is posited as a factual description. If you can explain the emergence of an "ought" from the mere existence of god, you would have derived an "ought" from an "is". I bet you will.
Your use of the word "authority" is deceiving. You just replaced with an euphemism the word "god", but the problem is still the same: a claim about information coming from an external first agent is, at the empirical level, information coming from the second agent, interpreted by third agents. So, actually, if any authorithy is recognized, is that of the second agent. But I have no reason to recognize preachers and prophets as having any moral authority, different or better than that of any single person.
Immanuel Can wrote:That's why Nietzsche's analysis of power, to the effect that all moralizing hides "the will to power." When mankind has no authority higher than themselves, power rules -- end of story.
If that were true, and if we mean by authority, a moral authority, and by power, mundane coercive power, then the next sentence would be true:
"When mankind has moral authority higher than themselves, mundane coercive power does not rule".
But that can easily shown to be false. You just have to look at the history of the Catholic and Protestant churches to acknowledge their use of mundane power, for the sake of mundane interests, but still recurring to a divine moral authority. Actually that's what all power elites have done throughout history: legitimize their power in the laundromat of divine intervention.
Nietzsche, of course, deprecated Christianity, but his "will to power" is still related to an underlying, non-material principle of reality, sort of a cosmic force. It was not meant to be a principle to be found in culture or human psychology. In that sense, even though accounted as an atheist, just like Schopenhauer, he's still and idealist that locates this principle in a metaphysical, a-historical domain. By bringing up Nietzsche, you are then debunking your own assertion that atheists cannot have something that trascends society as the source of their moral concepts. Your only chance is to assert that this argument works only for atheists that advocate materialism and monism.
Immanuel Can wrote:Not a whit. You still haven't explained why you oppose mutilating little girls, except to say that you are either personally disinclined or fearful of your society's majority opinion in that regard. But if you *were* so inclined, what reason would you have for not doing it?
All that is needed to explain is that I have a personal inclination, and that this inner force is the result of my interaction, as a free agent, with the world where I live. In that interaction take part innate characteristics of the human species, as well as cultural contexts, which allow the construction of my own personal values. I can sense pain, for example, and realize that is not good for me. But because there's empathy, I can relate my own feelings of pain with other people's feeling of pain and conclude that if it's not good for me, probably it's not good for them, either. Other people's opinions, as well as other cultural influences, of which I might be aware of or not, certainly put different weights in the balance of my personal drives and values, but in the end I hold myself responsible of my own actions. That's all is meant by social and historical context, not a deterministic, external force imposed according to cause-effect laws in one's own actions, but a dialectical exchange with society, in which many possibilities are open at every point of decision.
Immanuel Can wrote:Your third mistake is to assert that an atheist has only available Naturalism and a deterministic view of society. If that were the case, history would be closed to the subject and actually, no one would be able to explain change, evolution in society, as a result of human agency.
Non sequitur. Your argument does not follow from your premise. "Evolution" is not a moral construct; it's posited only as a factual description. It's an "Is", not any kind of "Ought."
This I just explained above. As the facts of the world change, so society changes, but more importantly, we humans are active agents in transforming that world, and thus, ourselves. There you find an "ought" from an "is". Religious conservatives don't want to change anything, they want to preserve the old structures of domination and legitimize doctrines that some of us in the 21st century find inmoral.
Immanuel Can wrote:But Existentialism and Humanism show that an atheist has also available other views in
which humans control their own destiny. I'm not claiming they are right (that's not the purpose of this debate), but
that there are reasonable explanations to the concepts of good and wrong without the need for a god.
Neither of those can show they are a) true, and if they were, that they are b) morally compulsory. They are mere
human constructs, by their own confession, and thus cannot be made to oblige anyone at all. If "value" starts and
stops with humanity or with human choice, then the human "choice" to ignore them cannot be indicted at all. They've
got no moral teeth.
Exactly the same can be said about sourcing the notions of good and evil in religion. They can't show they are a) true, and if they were, that they are b) morally compulsory. The only empirical evidence available shows that they are
still human constructs, and thus any obligation derived from them is as human as any other. Of course, you could prove me wrong if you showed me with perfect precision, without interfering interpretations, the universal concepts of good and wrong, the "oughts" given by the divine entity. Any sources that your point your fingers at, will be human sources, and none of them seem to reach an agreement on what are the "oughts" commanded by god. Do you know what's your god's stance, for example, on killing people? Then we'll see where there's moral teeth.
Immanuel Can wrote:if a "religion" as you call them, should be included which actually reflected substantially the true will of the Supreme Being, then you'd simply have a situation of many false answers and one right one.
Pointless argument. A conditional statement that does not dissolve pluralism. You are only saying that one of many views can be true, but that can include views coming from atheists, too.
Immanuel Can wrote:You're assuming that God would rather take away free will than allow anyone to choose freely what they will believe or do. This is incorrect. But the fault is not in God, but in your assumption.
But one of the choices created by the divinity for his/her creatures is evil. Why did an all-benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god, create evil in the first place? Didn't he/she have the choice of not creating it? That human have choices and pick from them is irrelevant to the problem of the evil choice being contingent and existent. And what would be the point of making humans pick? If god is all-powerful and all-knowing, he/she already controls the outcome of what humans think it's they're own decision, so in order to allow human free will you necessarily have to drop down a couple of the essential attributes of god, in other words, human free will denies such a god.
Immanuel Can wrote:The existence of multiple views does not go one step in the direction of proving that all these
views are legitimate and equal. Some could be partially right but partially wrong, and some could be badly wrong...and still one could be right.
That's the point, how can they be wrong and at the same time be true your statement that god "created understanding" and could always make him/herself clear about the message. And you haven't explained why this god deprived a major portion of humanity of his/her message.
Immanuel Can wrote:You've also got a bizarre view of, as you call it "evilness," as if that were some kind of
created entity instead of what it really is -- a rejection of negation of right relationship to the Supreme Being, and so not a "thing" but an "anti-thing." God creates good; evil is not a separate-but-equal created entity, as in Taoism, say, but rather is a natural byproduct of the rejection of the good as God has created it.
OK, you certainly felt comfortable saying that "understanding" was created, as if that were some kind of entity, but now you found trouble with some other abstract concept that shows not to be convenient. And that in a debate about god an advocate of the Christian faith has to invoke Taoism is certainly perplexing. That's bizzare. But anyway, that evil is implied in good does not solve the paradox. Your god could have chosen to create an absolute good, in fact, that's what you would expect, considering his/her attribute of being all-benevolent. In any case, didn't he/she have access to a miracle that would make good available without the evil counterpart?
Immanuel Can wrote:This time what you have is a fallacy called "false analogy." It's not just that you would have to prove Reagan, Bush and Blair to be genuine Christians, but that you would have to show they were acting "Christianly" at the moment they made their particular decisions.
You just have debunked your own "no true scotsman" fallacy. You would have to show also that they were acting "atheistically" at the moment they made their particular decisions.
Immanuel Can wrote:An Atheist, however, has no objective moral restraints placed on him
That's, of course, absolute nonsense. The fact that atheists object many moral religious doctrines is just one proof that a god is not needed to have moral restraints. And if by "objective" we mean "independent of the subject's mind", society and nature are pretty well established as objective realities.
Immanuel Can wrote:so when Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao undertook to murder millions, loudly professing their Atheism as they did so, they were not acting as "bad" Atheists.
There you are again with the same fallacy you had revoked yourself two sentences before. The murderers belonging to the Christian and other religious faiths were more than loudly professing their theism as they did so, they were not acting as "bad" theists. They said their actions were good and commanded by god. They showed the "sacred scriptures" in which they based their decisions, the same scripture that you use today as a moral code. They burned people alive while holding that scripture in their hands. Of course, if you want to say that "no true scotsman" does something, why wouldn't you accept that "no true atheist" does the other? What makes an atheist is that they deny the existence of god, not the existence of morality. Your belief in morality coming from god does not change that.
Immanuel Can wrote:Thus you are comparing a group of people who may have acted *contrary* to what they should have done (a la Theism, which prohibits murder, selfishness, dishonesty, etc.), according to their moral system, with those who were acting in perfect consistency with what their moral system (Atheism) permits.
Actually, your "word of god" can easily be interpreted, or even more, has in fact been interpreted, as allowing all those things that you say it prohibits. No need to go now, one by one, through all the accounts of biblical mandates to kill other people, and to deceive, and do all kinds of cruel, inmoral things.